Wasn't Ray right about his and Donna's relationship?

Discussion in 'Dallas - The Original Series' started by Herofan, Apr 2, 2019.

  1. Herofan

    Herofan Soap Chat Member

    Message Count:
    75
    Trophy Points:
    124
    Location:
    U.S.
    Ratings:
    +89
    When Ray and Donna first met, he and Donna liked each other, but didn't he always feel that they wouldn't work out because he was "just a cowboy" and he realized she was into politics, traveled in different circles, and was a little more worldly than him; however, Donna convinced him that it would work; she seemed to think his view was ridiculous at the time. Then, in the season where Wes Parmalee came along, Ray and Donna are having trouble. At that point, wasn't it because of the reason Ray originally said? Donna was now working in Washington to help the oil business. I can't remember exact words, but wasn't it Donna's opinion that Ray just wanted to hang around and watch the world go by while she wanted to be busy and changing the world? I think Ray owed her a big "I told you so."
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. Victoriafan3

    Victoriafan3 Soap Chat Well-Known Member

    Message Count:
    672
    Trophy Points:
    2,186
    Location:
    New zealand
    Ratings:
    +1,894
    Member Since:
    About 2005
    Unfortunately and to the shows detriment, Ray and Donna split up, IMO, because a) sadly and foolishly the producers wanted to write Susan out and b) Ray was a jerk to her in the last season. In the dream season Ray and Donna were a dream team and they worked superbly well together and they were a highlight of the show for me. She just wanted him to be himself and to love her as she did him. She always looked at him as equal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 7
  3. Billy Wall

    Billy Wall Soap Chat Active Member

    Message Count:
    236
    Trophy Points:
    174
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Ratings:
    +295
    Ray’s insecurities ended their relationship.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Kenny Coyote

    Kenny Coyote Soap Chat TV Fanatic

    Message Count:
    1,408
    Trophy Points:
    690
    Occupation:
    Rock Guitarist
    Location:
    Maryland
    Ratings:
    +1,595
    Yes, that was just about exactly a quote from Donna re: Ray wanting to watch the world go by while she had an almost pathological need to prove herself in politics. Guess she never really got rid of the influence of Sam Culver and of course he was a massively influential and important politician in Texas - they said he was just as big a politician as Lyndon Johnson, or just as revered in Texas. So Donna was never going to equal that but she kept trying and in the process kept overshadowing anything Ray might do.

    The main thing that ruined their marriage was that any time Ray tried to grow as a man and do something more, Donna would be right there, trying to put him in his place. Suppose he was in a real estate deal. Donna would say "Ray what do you know about that? And what happened to that cowboy I married?"

    The message is very clear:Ray is supposed to stay exactly what he was when Donna married him. of course that charming little rule doesn't apply to Donna. She went from politics to writing books to counseling handicapped kids to taking over Bobby's job while he was blind, lest JR try to steal Bobby's portion of Ewing Oil. When Bobby regained his sight then Donna went about buying an oil field and Ray never said to her: Hey, what happened to that politician I married? Besides, what do you know about drilling for oil anyway? You always told me you wanted to conserve the land. What happened to that conservationist I married, huh?

    It would have been interesting to see if Donna could take it as well as she could dish it out. I suspect she wouldn't have been able to do that. She was so used to everything going her way, always succeeding no matter how little she might have known about her latest business venture. She'd been blessed with extremely good fortune. So the first time she had to face true adversity in the form of failure - her failure to produce a healthy baby - she absolutely refused to try to get pregnant again.

    Obviously it wasn't Donna's fault that she got pregnant with a baby that had Down's syndrome but to her it felt like she had finally failed at something in life - at the most important thing in life. She felt she had failed at ensuring that there would be children to carry on the family bloodline. They wouldn't have children to raise, to love, to have fun with and to have someone to care for them in their old age. Maybe Donna felt like it kind of was her fault because instead of starting a family when she was younger and the chances of having a healthy baby would have been greater, she waited until she was relatively old. Maybe she felt guilty that she had made Ray wait so damn long to finally become a father. She said something in one episode when the subject of getting oregano gains arose, that in a woman her age, the chances of having a baby with problems was higher than if she were younger.

    Ray was up for trying again but Donna kept saying no, she was too scared that shed have another baby with health defects. She had had no experience at ever failing at anything so when he found out her baby had Down's, and then she had a miscarriage, she refused to ever try to get pregnant again (according to the storyline of the dream season. By season 10, that whole incident had never happened and she was pregnant with a healthy baby. She'd gotten Ray to get her pregnant so, knowing that his job was done, she started planning on divorcing him and to add insult to injury, she was going to move half-way across the country so that Ray wouldn't get to participate very much in raising the baby - incidentally the one thing he had always really wanted.)

    Ray had a strong desire to start a family and be a father but Donna typically hadn't cared about what Ray wanted or needed - it was all about Donna. So instead of moving to the state capital Austin - somewhere Ray could have visited often and she could have been in state politics, Donna decided to move to Washington DC because only federal government was big enough for Donna. That meant Ray wouldn't be able to take part in raising his daughter. Tough luck, Ray. Donna was gonna do what Donna wanted regardless of the effect it would have on Ray.

    Donna had a constant stifling effect on Ray anytime he wanted to try to experience some personal growth and branch out into new areas. Donna made it very clear to Ray that his place was as a cowboy It was as if she'd said: This is your little box; this is your station in life so don't try to improve upon it and don't venture outside of your little space - you're not nearly capable or competent enough to pull that off and you'll surely fail. So stick to being my cowboy. If anyone is going to try new things and venture into new businesses it's gonna me and not you, Ray.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Lastkidpicked

    Lastkidpicked Soap Chat Well-Known Member

    Message Count:
    673
    Trophy Points:
    984
    Location:
    United States
    Ratings:
    +1,461
    Medals:
    2
    Member Since:
    2008
    Interesting that you posted this right while I'm watching season 4, the season they find out that Ray is Jock's son. One thing jumped out at me this time around.

    Everybody is in the living room toasting Ray and Donna's engagement. Jock proposes a toast and here is what he said:

    "Here's to Donna and Ray!
    Donna's been used to a fine lifestyle. I couldn't have her just marrying some old cowpoke, could I?
    I went to see the lawyers today and had them change the trust to include Ray. Twenty five percent of it is yours now. You are a millionaire in your own right, Ray."

    Well . . .

    No he's not. Up until now, everything Ray has, he earned himself. He is a landowner in his own right. He is about to be a married man in his own right. But he is not a millionaire in his own right. That was given to him without him earning it in his own right.

    To put a finer point on it-- The Ray who earned everything he had changed to a Ray who had things given to him.

    And here is the irony of the whole thing. With the toast, it was assumed that this money would guarantee Ray and Donna happiness. In fact, it did the opposite.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Kenny Coyote

    Kenny Coyote Soap Chat TV Fanatic

    Message Count:
    1,408
    Trophy Points:
    690
    Occupation:
    Rock Guitarist
    Location:
    Maryland
    Ratings:
    +1,595
    This is tough, LastKid. I see your point but at the same time I see Jock's point. You both want the right thing for Ray - that he be treated well and fairly. I like Ray. I've never been in Jock's position - finding out you've got a son you didn't know about. A son who grew up poor and was teased by all the kids at school because his daddy was the town drunk! That's brutal way to grow up I would imagine.

    Does the ten million dollars make up of growing up without his real father, being deprived of his birthright - the type of high class upbringing JR and Bobby -being born with a silver spoon in your mouth? Does 10 million bucks make up for that? Maybe...maybe not. I really don't know. What I do know is that Jock, now knowing Ray is his own son wants to try to make up for Ray's missing childhood somehow. So he gives Ray enough that he'll always be financially secure. I see that as a nice, generous thing. It seems to me that you don't. Did I misunderstand you?

    You have your way of looking at it and I understand what you're saying but I still have my way of thinking on this particular subject and so far I'm still convinced Jock did a good thing here. It didn't guarantee Ray and Donna happiness, but what could Jock have given them that would have guaranteed them happiness?

    What Jock gave them guaranteed Ray and Donna financial security and I think that's about as much as Jock or anyone else could have guaranteed them. Would you agree with that much, Lastkid?
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 2
  7. Via The Void

    Via The Void Soap Chat Well-Known Member

    Message Count:
    664
    Trophy Points:
    480
    Ratings:
    +1,177
    Susan Howard was supposedly a big supporter of Philip Capice. When Capice was forced out & Leonard Katzman took control of the show for season ten, that's when the character of Donna was written out.

    Rather unprofessional of Katzman, to let Susan Howard go like that. Donna & Ray were a far better couple than Jenna & Ray. A shame that Katzman let his personal feelings make a decision like that, as Victoria also left at the end of that season. That's when Dallas began it's slow downward spiral before it got cancelled four years later. :(
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  8. Kenny Coyote

    Kenny Coyote Soap Chat TV Fanatic

    Message Count:
    1,408
    Trophy Points:
    690
    Occupation:
    Rock Guitarist
    Location:
    Maryland
    Ratings:
    +1,595
    Are you pretty sure that the decision was personal and not for some there reason such as needing to cut costs, or possibly Susan Howard and the studio not being able to agree on a fair salary for her?

    Personally, I tend to think Capice was very good, probably better than Katzmann. My method for making this decision isn;t based on anything I read though, it's based on this: Back when I used to watch Dallas with my parents I distinctly remember the name CAPICE coming up at the end of the credits or very near the end of the closing credits. This was from the time I remember enjoying Dallas the most - the glory years of the show - 1980-1985 or 1986. It's not the most scientific method, I know, but the really memorable episodes usually had Philip Capice listed in the closing credits.

    There is something strange about the firing or letting go of actresses at the end of season 10. You just mentioned Susan Howard - a main character of the show. Victoria Principal left by her own choosing so we can't blame Katzmann for that. But considering Victoria was the most beautiful woman on the show decided to leave at the end of season 10, why the hell would Katzmann let Deborah Shelton - the next best looking woman on the show go too??? Whether you like the acting of Victoria Principal and Deborah Shelton or not, just from a purely demographic concern, why would they have who were, in my opinion, the two best looking women on the show leave at the same time? What a horrible idea!

    Was season 11, the first season without Victoria and Deborah and Susan, the year that Sheree J. Wilson made her Dallas debut? I think it might have been. I have read that Katzmann liked Miss Wilson in a personal way, maybe he even had a romance going on with her. I wouldn't know about that. But I've read enough times to be pretty sure that Katzmann was considered Sheree J. Wilson's biggest fan and supporter.

    In this era of male executives at studios being exposed for having used their power to hire or fire an actress as leverage to try to get the actresses they liked to sleep with them, has Sheree J. Wilson, or any of the other women on Dallas ever accused Katzmann of trying anything like that? I know it's a horrible thing to bring up, but it's just that I've read so much in this forum about how Katzman was just was fascinated with Sheree J. Wilson and I don't have any way of knowing if it was in a good way, or in a sleazy, abusive, manipulative way.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Seaviewer

    Seaviewer Soap Chat Dream Maker

    Message Count:
    1,799
    Trophy Points:
    4,121
    Location:
    Australia
    Ratings:
    +2,685
    Medals:
    3
    Member Since:
    14 September 2001
    To a certain extent it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Ray was probably never going to see himself as worthy of her.
    I never looked at it that way before but fault is seldom all on one side.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  10. Lastkidpicked

    Lastkidpicked Soap Chat Well-Known Member

    Message Count:
    673
    Trophy Points:
    984
    Location:
    United States
    Ratings:
    +1,461
    Medals:
    2
    Member Since:
    2008
    I think that we agree on more than we disagree in this case.

    I agree with you that Jock did the right thing. You are right about that.

    When I was watching the scene, where there was a definite shift from Ray being the ranch foreman to Ray becoming a full time Ewing that had me thinking, "Your would have been happier if you had stayed ranch foreman, Ray."
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  11. Taylor Bennett Jr.

    Taylor Bennett Jr. Soap Chat TV Fanatic

    Message Count:
    1,422
    Trophy Points:
    892
    Location:
    one of them high rises down in Venezuela
    Ratings:
    +2,512
    In hindsight it looks like Jock’s mistake was announcing the trust decision the way he did without talking to anyone privately, especially Ellie, first. Ultimately it was Jock’s decision, but he could have at least prevented much of the fallout with better communication. Apparently the trust decision was a primary factor in Ellie moving towards divorce - which I thought was a bit absurd after 40 years. Also, a nice heart-to-heart with JR could have helped.

    Good communication is key in relationships (or so I've been told and reminded pointedly!), but it just wasn't Jock's way.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  12. stevew

    stevew Soap Chat TV Fanatic

    Message Count:
    1,307
    Trophy Points:
    1,194
    Location:
    Michigan
    Ratings:
    +843
    Medals:
    1
    Member Since:
    Jan 2012
    Defiantly a Ewing flaw.
     
  13. Via The Void

    Via The Void Soap Chat Well-Known Member

    Message Count:
    664
    Trophy Points:
    480
    Ratings:
    +1,177
    Susan Howard herself believes that's why she was dropped from Dallas. She has intimated as much in some of the various interviews she's given over the years. And yes, Sheree J. Wilson debuted in the following season after she had left. Not all of Katzman's decisions where really for the good of the show, methinks! :(
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Toni

    Toni Soap Chat Star

    Message Count:
    2,820
    Trophy Points:
    4,535
    Occupation:
    Aspiring writer and factual webmaster
    Location:
    Fletcher Sanitarium, Barcelona, Spain
    Ratings:
    +5,100
    Medals:
    5
    Member Since:
    September 12, 2001 (poster formerly known as Pam's Twin Sister)
    Not to be nitpicky, but Sheree debuted in the same season Susan and Victoria left. In the video below she sadly explains why she was let go (with a big sense of humor, to be honest...):

     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Via The Void

    Via The Void Soap Chat Well-Known Member

    Message Count:
    664
    Trophy Points:
    480
    Ratings:
    +1,177
    I stand, or rather I sit corrected!

    That is more or less what Lorimar told her. It's obviously hogwash as there was so many things they could've done with her character. I firmly believe she was let go because of her being a supporter of Capice. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
    • Cyber Hug Cyber Hug x 1

Share This Page