TNT Dallas - A Caricature Of The Original

Discussion in 'Dallas TNT' started by Kenny Coyote, Nov 14, 2018.

  1. Frank Underwood

    Frank Underwood Soap Chat Dream Maker

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    I've been a member of soap chat since 1999, which was 13 years before the new show came along. Even then, people discussed what they considered to be flaws in the original show too. We were all fans of the show, so there were still many posts discussing what we liked. But at the same time, it was interesting discussing the points where we thought it went wrong.

    I know many Dallas fans who wouldn't have bothered with the new series had it not been billed as a continuation. I understand the resentment in light of the direction it went in.

    Although I thought it was shitty of them to put scenes like the one where Sue Ellen tells Emma about Kristen in the trailer, only to leave it on the cutting room floor.

    But I'm sure it would have taken away from Mama Ryland's brothel and the drug cartel's business.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
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  2. Frank Underwood

    Frank Underwood Soap Chat Dream Maker

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    Absolutely! I felt like I was being gaslighted every time Cidre would say she was preserving the history and the roots of the show because it was rarely reflected on screen.
     
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  3. Michael Torrance

    Michael Torrance Soap Chat Enthusiast

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    I wasn't a fan of the original. I saw it and enjoyed it up until Bobby's dream, but I wasn't a fan the way I am a fan of DYNASTY. And because of some actors I really liked, and how great Linda Grey was, I was very excited with the TNT version when it started. But even as a non-fan, I had a viewer's perspective that Cliff would never have been so Blofeld that he would order a bomb to go off where his pregnant daughter was. I also knew there had been no hispanic family with Elena and her brother living with the Ewings. So, both the disregard of the past bothered me, and the distortion of the present into a drug cartel show, because that was not what the original Dallas was about. But as has already mentioned, Cidre's "respect" for the history can be seen in her emblematic move to want to present it as her own creation, so that the union had to step in.
     
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  4. Willie Oleson

    Willie Oleson SoapLand Battles Moderator

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    I like a good discussion and it doesn't bother me at all when other posters disagree with me, it's just that the negative threads seem to dominate the forums.
    Kristin had done some rotten things, but the way Sue Ellen talked about her own sister was a bit uncharacteristic, especially since that sister is no longer alive.
    Funny that the anti-TNT fans would support something so vile (considering the forum's backlash against Cliff's actions).
     
  5. Kenny Coyote

    Kenny Coyote Soap Chat TV Fanatic

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    I haven't seen the scene you're discussing. Could you tell me where it's available for viewing? Thanks.

    What did you find uncharacteristic about Sue Ellen in the scene? I'm asking because talking badly about a sister who attempted to murder her husband, and then framed her for the attempted murder doesn't sound so unreasonable to me.

    I don't know what was said in that scene other than that Sue Ellen talked badly about Kristen, but I don't believe one scene that's "a bit uncharacteristic" of a character is comparable to destroying another character to the point where he's virtually unrecognizable.

    Perhaps what the anti-TNT fans liked about the scene was that it (as far as I know) correctly referenced the show's past - something TNT Dallas rarely managed to do.
     
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  6. Michael Torrance

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    I don't think it is uncharacteristic either. Sue Ellen wanted her son not to turn out like his father, and that is what is prompting her trying to scare Emma into stopping her act. Her motherly love always trumped all other instincts. It's also a shame they cut the scene not just for the history but for Emma's great comeback (the actress was amazing and, as many eventually were, wasted).
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
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  7. Frank Underwood

    Frank Underwood Soap Chat Dream Maker

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    Talking badly about your dead sister isn't the same as putting the lives of your nephew, daughter, and unborn grandchildren at risk. Not to mention hiding the death of your sister for 24 years so you could profit off of her shares. Now that was uncharacteristic. There was no love lost between Sue Ellen and Kristen, and that scene was more about keeping Emma in line.
     
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  8. Rove

    Rove Soap Chat Star

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    I believe that occured in ACT II of TNT Dallas :crazy:
     
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  9. Rove

    Rove Soap Chat Star

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    This proves Willie how each of us view scenes differently. I thought the deleted scene between Sue Ellen and Emma was a great nod to the past and a warning to Emma what happens when "Tramps" overstep their mark. It's this kind of scene which works to blend the old and the new and I'm stumped how it ended on the cutting room floor. There was always animosity between Sue Ellen and Kristin back in the day. I don't think Sue Ellen was particularly harsh about her sister in this scene. But this is how I view it.
     
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  10. Rove

    Rove Soap Chat Star

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    I now view TNT Dallas as yet another missed opportunity after the failure of Lorimar Dallas post Pam Ewing and the reunion movies. On the positive side it was a blast to see JR, Sue Ellen, Bobby and Southfork back on the small screen.
     
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  11. Karin Schill

    Karin Schill Super Moderator Staff Member

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    IMHO the best thing about Dallas TNT was that it was a continuation and the cast. I think the new and the original cast blended well together and there was a lot of stuff about season one that I loved. :)


    I know! I actually love the idea of making Ann the unknown one night stand that Cliff had. It would have tied nicely into the backstory of the show but of course it would have forced them to give Ken a bigger role on the show and they much prefered to lock Cliff up in that Mexican jail! :(

    Then as for Mitch, he also played that patient at the looney bin where JR was locked up at in season 13. It was established he and JR were rivals. So how's that for a back story to use? :D

    The Sue Ellen and Emma scene was right in character for Sue Ellen. I mean she's always had an acid tongue and used sarcasm. It was right there in season two of original Dallas.

    I know that was what bothered me the most about Dallas TNT how they cut out the scenes that a lot of fans wanted to see - like JR/SE dancing at the BBQ and Val & Gary's scene in season two and the Emma/Sue Ellen scene with the reference to Kristin and kept crap scenes I didn't want to watch instead.

    The JR/SE and Val/Gary scene weren't even included among the deleted scenes on the DVD even though they used the JR/SE still from that scene among the images on the cover. It was the one scene I most looked forward to watch when my DVD arrived so imagine my disappointment when it wasn't included on it. I still don't understand why depriving the fans from the scenes we most wanted to watch even on the DVD release! :confuse:
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
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  12. Michael Torrance

    Michael Torrance Soap Chat Enthusiast

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    There are mostly positive threads in the forum about the original Dallas, at least up to the mid-80s episodes.
     
  13. Willie Oleson

    Willie Oleson SoapLand Battles Moderator

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    I know there was bad blood between them but she was still her sister.
    And it's not really about what she said, but how she said it - in such a light-hearted, almost cheerful way.

    And if it's so perfectly understandable that she hates Kristin and that she has no reason to forgive her even after she died, how do you explain the relationship between JR and Bobby, or JR and Sue Ellen for that matter?
    Following your logic, they should have been dancing on his grave.
    The only difference between Kristin and Sue Ellen was that Kristin actually pulled the trigger.
    Cliff is an old man and he knew he wasn't going to live forever. He built his own Barnes Global empire and this was his last chance to beat the Ewings.
    This time there were no "other times" or "next years".
    Yes it's nice, but NuDallas doesn't have to live in the past.

    I think it was a good decision to delete this scene. Mrs Cidre may not have watched all the O.Dallas episodes, but I got the impression that she knew what made these Ewings tick.
    And that's far more important than an Oil Baron's Ball.

    [​IMG]

    Don't worry, you'll NEVER hear those words again.
     
  14. Karin Schill

    Karin Schill Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Never say never. If unknown shows that nobody has ever heard of can get a reunion movie why shouldn't Dallas be able to get a final movie to wrap things up a few years from now?

    The last time Dallas wrapped in 1991 and JR Returns came out in 1996. That was 5 years in between. This time Dallas was cancelled in 2014. It's been 4 years now. So okay if something would happen it would probably already have been announced or happened this year with the 40th Anniversary. Yet I never thought Dallas would return as a series before the 2012 revival and it did. So you never know. ;)

    I can't wait to hear your thoughts once you start to rewatch the original show! :)

    But yeah JR and Bobby had a much closer relationship as did JR/SE.
    Kristin and Sue Ellen were never close and Kristin slept with Sue Ellen's husband. JR never slept with Bobby's wife. Yes he did sleep with April, but not while she was together with Bobby. It happened before.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
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  15. Rove

    Rove Soap Chat Star

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    Using this logic Willie we could question why Lorimar Dallas often used the history of bad blood between the Ewing and Barnes families. It's the backbones which is required to push the story further along. Imagine if Lorimar Dallas had started with Bobby bringing home his new bride only for the Ewing family to hit the pause button, but nothing was offered why they took such offence to Bobby marrying a Barnes. I think most viewers would be curious what is the history behind this family.

    Now look at it another way. Cynthia and her team created some bizarre back story about Miss Ellie being in a mental (correct me if I'm wrong) institution to justify their plot involving Southfork. Most avid Dallas fans immediately picked up this continuation error and criticized TNT Dallas accordingly. Of course the newbies wouldn't know but those most loyal to Dallas do. So the scene between Sue Ellen and Emma is a great example of using history to justify Sue Ellen in teaching Emma what happens when you tango with drugs and soon to be married men. In effect Sue Ellen was trying to both protect her son and help Emma by using her dead sister as an example. Sue Ellen's sense of humour in her delivery was in response to Emma's bitchy remarks. Also Sue Ellen was fond of Ann so was possibly trying her best to keep the situation light rather than both ending up in the Southfork swimming pool.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
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  16. Rove

    Rove Soap Chat Star

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    Correct. It's one of the minor missteps of Lorimar Dallas. I also found it curious why Sue Ellen didn't have a closer relationship with Christopher, he was a blood relative afterall.
     
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  17. Willie Oleson

    Willie Oleson SoapLand Battles Moderator

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    And isn't it amazing that it actually happened?
    One could argue that that was the only thing he didn't do.:lol:
    Yeah I get that it was meant to be taken sarcastically but every time I watch that clip my reaction is the same: "harsh!"
    But maybe she didn't hate Kristin, maybe she never had any feelings for her sister at all.
     
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  18. Michael Torrance

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    I think the new Dallas team counted a lot on JR/the trio of original characters being the thread that kept the old and new together while they went haywire with all other elements, and Hagman's death meant only the haywire part survived, that called the never-before-known Ramos family. Elena was simply a black hole in terms of narrative progress because it was pulling the show away from the Ewings and established history, when they could have had her be someone working at Ewing without the past mumbo jumbo. At least Ann as a current Mrs. Ewing was making the past and the Rylands relevant. But season 1 was not as derailed as the show eventually came to be--it was still salvageable, and I was looking forward to the second season although I already felt Elena and her revisionist family story was being crammed down our throats by Cidre. (Which is also why I find insincere the calls for the show not to be "tied down" to its past when it was actually trying to convince us very much it was continuing from a past, only a past never witnessed on screen.)
    But by the second season, Elena becomes even more prominent (and now has Drew) while the absence of J.R. has Cidre turn Cliff into a new kind of cardboard villain. By season three, though ironically the old style title sequence has returned, the show is as far removed from the Dallas established history and the soap genre as can be. Nicolas joins the Elena ridiculousness (a waste of a good and hunky actor), the Rylands become a carnival number, and the show is oscillating between a Narcos wannabe and an American Horror Story pale copy.
     
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  19. Kenny Coyote

    Kenny Coyote Soap Chat TV Fanatic

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    Regarding "The only difference between Kristin and Sue Ellen was that Kristin actually pulled the trigger": That's not true at all. Even if it were true, the difference between pulling the trigger and not is the difference between committing murder and not committing murder. That's huge! It's not the only difference though. Kristin framed Sue Ellen for murder - set Sue Ellen up for a prison term. You never do do that to family! You just don't and Sue Ellen never did it to Kristin which is a MAJOR difference between them despite what you claimed was their only difference.

    Regarding "And if it's so perfectly understandable that she hates Kristin and that she has no reason to forgive her even after she died, how do you explain the relationship between JR and Bobby, or JR and Sue Ellen for that matter?" I explain the relationship between JR and Bobby as two brothers who were rivals and competitors but not enemies. JR and Bobby each have bad qualities that the other puts up with because they are brothers and because each brother also has good qualities. There are times when they're bad to each other but there are certain lines they never cross because despite their differences they love each other. A perfect example of lines they don't cross was illustrated when Bobby was blinded. John Ross asked JR why he didn't just take Ewing Oil away from Bobby while Bobby couldn't see." JR explained that there are certain things you just don't do to family and taking advantage of Bobby while he was blind was an example of one of those things you just don't do. JR then said to his son that if he followed his advice "you'll be able to live with yourself."

    Finally: "Following your logic, they should have been dancing on his grave." No, not even close. Whether you're talking about a sibling relationship like Bobby and JR or Kristin and Sue Ellen, or a romantic relationship such as JR and Sue Ellen, you don't judge the person you're in that relationship with based solely on the worst one or two things that person ever did to you. A human being's worth is not based solely on the worst minute or two of his life! It's much more complex. People's lives and the relationships in their lives are made up of all the good and all the bad things they've done. All of a person's actions, the good, the bad, and the in between are what make up who they are. Anything less than taking everything into consideration would be to do them a great injustice.

    I have no reason to believe Rove's "logic" was contrary to what I've just state, since those are universal truths and Rove certainly didn't say anything to make me believe he's for some reason an exception in the way he sees things. Rove's post gave us no reason to believe his "logic", would be to "Dance on a person's grave if they've ever done something bad to you and refuse to take into account all the good they've ever done you."

    Take Sue Ellen and JR's relationship for example. Why should she be "dancing on his grave"? The only way of thinking I can see that would justify that is if she based JR's value to her solely on the worst things he ever did to her. She'd be dancing on his grave only if she ignored all the qualities JR had that she admired as well as ignored anything good JR ever did for her.

    He hadn't been a saint but neither had she. At the end of season 11, Sue Ellen shot JR when he was unarmed! That's worse than anything JR ever did to her. Jr showed a surprising large capacity for forgiveness when he refused to press charges on Sue Ellen for attempted murder despite that everything indicated that had JR taken this matter to court, all the facts of the case would be in his favor. Sue Ellen and Nick Pearce had broken and entered into his home. They were both guilty of trespassing and refused t leave when JR asked them to leave. It was the that he pulled out a gun and again asked them to leave. Rather than comply, Pearce assaulted JR and managed to take the gun out of his hands in the process. JR then tried to retreat from Pearce - still attempting to avoid violence. However Pearce made avoiding violence impossible by relentlessly following JR all the way out onto the balcony. It was then that there struggle tragically ended in Pearce falling to his death over the side of the balcony. These are all facts. Sue Ellen had no case and had JR pressed charges, she would certainly have been given a prison sentence. JR even at that time, even while he lay in a hospital bed with three bullet holes in him showed he had the mercifulness and compassion to spare Sue Ellen of that prison sentence. He still cared for her too much to do that and even more significantly, he didn't press charges because he didn't want John Ross to have to deal with the pain and embarrassment he would surely face if his mother were sent to prison.

    They had both cheated on each other. They had both at times tried to make the other miserable. Then there are the things they valued in each other. Sue Ellen valued JR being a wonderful father to John Ross. That was perhaps JR's best quality and she valued it greatly. JR was an excellent provider and he supported Sue Ellen in a tremendously high standard of living. He was never stingy with her regarding gifts and regarding her being able to buy anything she desired. Regarding romantic love, Sue Ellen and JR both believed there was a "magic" between them.. That certainly can't be ignored! That was the basis for the excitement of the pleasurable and meaningful times they shared together, and why Sue Ellen married JR again after divorcing him.

    JR was also courageous wen he needed to be. He literally walked through fire and almost died trying to save Sue Ellen and John Ross in the Southfork fire Ray caused. JR again risked his life to save John Ross when he was kidnapped by B.D. Calhoun. JR was shot in the process. When JR believed Calhoun was going to shoot him, even then his only thought was unselfish! His only thought then was of John Ross because he said to Calhoun: "If you're going to kill me now at least don't let my son see his daddy die"! To attempt to argue that Kristin had equally good qualities as these or even anywhere close would be impossible.

    In summary, while JR had serious flaws, he also had serious redeeming qualities. Those redeeming qualities and the good times he had shared with both Sue Ellen and Bobby mean that he had considerable value to both of them. Kristin had terrible flaws but had no redeeming qualities. Because of that, Kristin simply had very little value to Sue Ellen and the only thing that made her of any value whatsoever to Sue Ellen is they were related.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
  20. Willie Oleson

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    And the only reason JR was forgiven over and over and over again is because he was family, and I guess he did have his generous moments, but I think that's how they kept these soap villains likeable enough and - more importantly - close to the other characters.
    I wouldn't consider "loving one's child" a redeeming quality. It's a natural feeling that even the most horrible monsters have.
    Risking his life to save his child doesn't make him a hero.

    The best thing that could ever happen to a Dallas character is being ignored by JR. That's when you say "it was my lucky day".

    What's so fascinating about JR's death is that they weren't simply grieving the loss of a brother/father/ex-husband (like they did when Bobby "died") but they also struggled with their feelings because he was such a bastard. How are you going to remember a man like JR? How do you make sense of those feelings? I think Sue Ellen's drunken speech illustrated that.
     

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