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Bobby and Pam's Marriage During The Contest

Discussion in 'Dallas - The Original Series' started by Kenny Coyote, Aug 30, 2019.

  1. Lastkidpicked

    Lastkidpicked Soap Chat Well-Known Member EXP: 11 Years

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    One of the best parts of the story line is where Bobby takes Pam along with him to the restaurant so he can personally observe his setup of Hicks. Bobby knows this is wrong, and is struggling with it. Pam is talking to Bobby while Bobby watches the Hicks setup.

    It's almost as if Pam is quite literally the voice of Bobby's conscience.

    Pam: I'm worried about you, Bobby. I'm worried about us. Cliff told me you forced the cartel to buy you out.
    Bobby: It was a business deal, pure and simple
    Pam: They said you pushed them to the wall
    Bobby: Honey, I'm in business (notices the prostitute entering the room for the setup) I do what I have to do.
    Pam: No matter who gets hurt?
    Bobby: Nobody's going to get hurt
    Pam: Everybody is going to get hurt.
    Bobby: Let's just enjoy the evening. (watches the prostitute start in on George Hicks) Everything is going to be fine. . . It's going to be just fine.

    In that scene, you can imagine that it's not Pam talking to Bobby, but his conscience talking to him. Very well written scene.
     
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  2. Kenny Coyote

    Kenny Coyote Soap Chat Dream Maker EXP: 12 Years

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    OK, last week I asked how people would have preferred Bobby to respond to JR's bribing of Hicks instead of blackmailing Hicks.

    Not one member of the forum responded with an idea for how Bobby could have responded that they think would have been better. That tells me that Bobby's response was actually pretty damn good, because 36 years is a long time for people to come up with something better. I don't know why so many have said Bobby was bad to do it, that it showed Bobby had become bad, if they can't offer up any plan of action for Bobby, regarding Hicks, that they would have preferred!

    Here's an excerpt from my post from last Thursday:

    "As for blackmailing Hicks, I don't like what Bobby did but it's far from being as bad as JR. Remember, JR instigated that situation by bribing Hicks to vote his way. Had JR not done that, there wouldn't have been a problem. Once Bobby found out JR was bribing Hicks, I guess he could have offered to give Hicks an even bigger bribe, but that just perpetuates the problem because JR can then offer Hicks even more, and it just goes on. If Bobby just allows JR to bribe Hicks and doesn't respond, JR probably wins the contest.. How is that good for anyone except JR? I have to think that JR in sole control of Ewing Oil would have done far worse things than bribe Hicks to vote his way from time to time. So I guess you could say Bobby was being proactive. It wasn't ideal, but do you have an ideal solution? How would you have liked Bobby to handle that particular situation?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  3. Lastkidpicked

    Lastkidpicked Soap Chat Well-Known Member EXP: 11 Years

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    This is such a great question, Kenny. And I have an answer that is way out there, but I believe it would have made for a happier Bobby Ewing.

    Get ready for this:

    Think about King Solomon. When two women claimed to be the mother of a baby, King Solomon ruled that the baby be cut in half, and each woman would receive half of the baby.

    The REAL mother begged, "No, just give the baby to my rival. I'd rather be without the baby than see him destroyed."

    Do you remember a few seasons before the contest? J.R. telling Sue Ellen, "I'm going to bring Bobby down. I'm going to cut him out. . . if I have to destroy Ewing Oil to do it!"

    What if Bobby began to realize that Ewing Oil, along with many people, could be destroyed by the contest? And Bobby makes this announcement:

    "I am watching this company damaged by short term gains that will cost this family dearly in the long term. I will give up my side of the fight because a strong Ewing Oil is what's best for this family. I will not allow J.R. to destroy the entire company just so he can rule over the ashes."
     
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  4. Kenny Coyote

    Kenny Coyote Soap Chat Dream Maker EXP: 12 Years

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    Hey @Lastkidpicked, I like that. You're the first person to offer any substance to the situation Bobby was in, rather than just saying, "What Bobby did was bad."

    It's easy to say something is bad. It's a lot harder to say "That was bad, and this would have been better."

    The other situation Bobby gets a lot of flack for is setting up Driscoll with the guns in his briefcase If Bobby does nothing in that situation, he's allowing his company to ship oil to Cuba. That's a serious enough felony to where the government, had it found out, would have taken Ewing Oil away from them. It wouldn't have just taken "JR's half of the company"; it would have seized the entire company. He can't let that happen. So what do you do in that situation? If Bobby told the government what was happening, about the oil shipment, he'd still be risking the entire company. He'd also be risking going to prison for what JR did. Why would he find that acceptable? Bobby gets a lot of flack for planting the guns, but I never hear anyone offering a better way for Bobby to handle that.
     
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  5. Laurie!

    Laurie! Soap Chat Member EXP: 1 Year

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    Ummm, I told you that Bobby's honest deal is what ultimately won him the company. Becoming a crooked, criminal to defeat one is never a solution.

    Do you have any idea what a ridiculous concept the 1 year fight for Ewing Oil was? Instant profits, that ensure long term debt for the company was JR's asinine M.O. for winning. Obviously Jock wouldn't have given a damn about Ewing Oil's long term prosperity by creating such an obvious scenario...however, it provided a good storyline.
     
  6. Toni

    Toni Soap Chat Mega Star EXP: 18 Years

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    I´ve always thought that Jock´s last codicil was reason enough to overturn the contest for good and annul the results of the fight for Ewing Oil. "I made you ruin your lives for my damn company. Now hug and run it together you b*tches!". No judge would deny that. Too bad Miss Ellie didn´t know about it when she took them to court. To me it was a proof of something I always suspected: that good ol´ Jock had been gaga for years and years...and pretended to be the perfect patriarch. :re: Oh yeah, ask Amanda and Sam Culver´s dead uncle...The will showed the kind of man that Jock really was though: an old-school manipulative pseudo-tyrant with no parenting skills...Poor, poor Ellie...

    upload_2019-9-10_23-16-48.jpeg

    "Miss Ellie, "It´s a Wonderful Life" is on TV, why dontcha come in?"
    "Oh you bast*rd, just f*ck off!!"​
     
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  7. Kenny Coyote

    Kenny Coyote Soap Chat Dream Maker EXP: 12 Years

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    Jock didn't make them do anything. He presented them with an opportunity they were free to accept or to not accept.

    The purpose of the contest was to make them respect each other for their abilities. Remember, Jock wrote in his will that it had always been his deepest hope that JR and Bobby would run Ewing Oil together. He saw that wasn't going to happen the way things were going. What he'd been trying, so that they'd respect and cooperate with each other, wasn't working.

    When what you've been doing hasn't been working you need to take a different approach. Jock did. He offered them a challenge, which, should they both choose to accept it, would finally force them to respect each other's abilities as oilmen. The truth would be undeniable. It would make them unable to deny the fact they were much stronger together than apart. Each had unique gifts and abilities the other didn't.

    Tell me that's a joke. You're kidding, right?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  8. Toni

    Toni Soap Chat Mega Star EXP: 18 Years

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    I disagree with you (kindly). An adult man (or woman too) doesn´t / shouldn´t need to prove to anyone, and less daddy and mummy, that they can get more money in one year than their brother. That will did great TV (probably it was the core of "Dallas" in a way) but I think that IRL that would prove that both were clearly weak, immature people who needed that acceptance for every thing they did out of the household. Come on, Pam was the true force behind Bobby during the first 2 years, even when she was whiney and insecure, there was a woman who tried to act with justice and equality, and be fair to her husband and her brother. I think that´s why many of us consider the "Dallas" heroine. Putting myself in her place, I´d never have stood one minute with J.R. by the pool looking at my t*ts (you know what I mean) or at dinner saying nasty things about my family. She was the queen of patience.

    upload_2019-9-15_11-8-23.jpeg

    She´s so beautiful, isn´t she?
    Funny the year isn´t visible... (cough, cough)​

    Tell me that's a joke. You're kidding, right?[/QUOTE]

    About Jock being gaga, well, of course it´s (half) a joke, but a number of times we saw old Jock resting and he suddenly seemed to wake up and say: "Dammit, I need a bourbon" (or whatever). And also the way she hid Amanda´s existence and Jonas Culver´s suicide (remember...?). He had a lot of nerve, and Miss Ellie also was extremely patient with him, and that´s what made their love story exemplary at the time. They were completely dysfunctional (well, so you all and I are too, aren´t we? (At least moi and Da Pig) and there a lot of layers in their personalities and backstory. And about this:

    "The will showed the kind of man that Jock really was though: an old-school manipulative pseudo-tyrant with no parenting skills...Poor, poor Ellie..."

    No, it´s not a joke. Of course Jock wasn´t the extreme tyrant that Blake Carrington was (who I couldn´t look at the eyes in the first seasons, all hatred towards many things in his "poor life"), he was noble and loyal and generous, but he could also be the contrary if he had a good reason. And no, I don´t think he had good parenting skills, but I deeply respect your opinion if you think he was a perfect father. He turned his middle son into an alcoholic because he didn´t fit in the kind of man that he needed at Ewing Oil (I know what I´m talking about re this issue, believe me), he pushed his youngest son to leave them and move out to California, and remember that he also refused to help Donna to convince Ray about coming back to him.

    And many other little scenes: the "Stewart woman" comment, his remarks about Pam wanting to work, spoiling rot Lucy and make her a Barbie doll with zero instinct for choosing men...Of course, he WASN´T guilty for all that, but IMO he WAS responsible partly for all that, as well as Miss Ellie. This is why I love "Dallas" so much: during the first 8 seasons they fed us with caviar and then on, they only gave us badly-cooked junk food. I hope you know what I mean...And I loved Jock despite all and especially loved how Jim Davis DIDN´T play him: he was just there, and he was one of the pillars of the show acting-wise. He opened his voice and you knew who the boss was.

    upload_2019-9-15_11-21-55.jpeg

    "Yes Takapa here. Get me a bourbon boy!"​
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
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  9. Kenny Coyote

    Kenny Coyote Soap Chat Dream Maker EXP: 12 Years

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    Nicely written post, Toni.

    I never thought that parenting was Jock's or Ellie's strong suit. They were better at everything else they did than parenting. I suppose in a soap opera of you end up with 3 very well adjusted, sons of high self-esteem, you're not going to get the same kid of conflict. There could still be conflict of course, but maybe not the kind of conflict they wanted. regarding "the caviar they fed us" in the first 8 seasons, it's hard to argue with success. I'm glad that Dallas did things the way they did, and if that means Jock and Elie had to be portrayed as not very good parents, so be it. It served the purpose of the overall story told.

    I do want to address the idea that Jock turned Gary into an alcoholic. here in the States, it's been increasingly the commonly held view that alcoholism is a disease, and nobody can give you that disease. Look at all the people who grew up in circumstances so bad they would have prayed to grow up in the Ewing household and who are not alcoholics.

    While I don't think Ellie and Jock were good parents, primarily because each had a favorite, which is terribly destructive, in general, I like the old-school style of parenting. What has been the result of the new-school style parenting? We have tremendously high divorce rates. We have had since the mid 90s, for the first time in the history of our country, mass shootings in schools. In earlier times, when America was a much wilder, less urban place, every home, or almost every home had a gun or guns in it.. Yet there were no cases of children coming to school with their parents' guns and shooting their schoolmates. Since guns have always been ubiquitous in America, what is the difference that has caused this terrible thing? I think the type of parenting is the difference.

    Heroin and narcotic use in general is at an all time high. The millennial generation lives with their parents longer than any other generation of the last 100 years, while the generations of old-school parents eagerly looked forward to becoming adults and moving out on their own. The products of new school parenting fear it. I could go on, but I think you get my point. Sometimes the traditional ways are the best ways, which is why they became tradition - they worked.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
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  10. Jimmy Todd

    Jimmy Todd Soap Chat Well-Known Member EXP: 9 Months

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    Ok, do I'm going to throw my two cents in on that and say I agree. I don't see any evidence that repealing the 2nd amendment will get to the root of the problem. Cities where there are very strict gun laws have A LOT of problems with gun crimes. Also, back to your point, guns were available in the past and there was not this phenomenon of mass shootings. I have a friend who was a principal of a school in a very rural area. Many of the boys went hunting after school so they brought their rifles to school in the morning. The principal had them leave them in a room and just pick them up on their way out. Never had a problem and never worried any boy would start shooting anyone. There's definitely something else going. I'm not saying there shouldn't be some regulations, but we need to address the root of the problem.
     
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  11. Mustard

    Mustard Soap Chat Fan

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    Pam and Miss Ellie warned J.R. and Bobby at the start that the Battle for Ewing Oil would end in disaster, when Miss Ellie tried to break Jock's will. Did they listen? Guess what, it ended in disaster, and far worse than expected, with deaths, paralysis of Mickey, and broken marriages. I think Bobby was the worst culprit at that time, along with Ray, for that whole business in setting up Walt Driscoll by placing two loaded pistols in his briefcase, which started a catastrophic chain of events.
     
  12. lbf522

    lbf522 Soap Chat Active Member

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    Bobby had more loyalty to Pamela than she did to him. She expected him to give Cliff slack when he tried to harm Bobby's family. Pamela kidnapped his brother's son and Bobby did stick by her instead of being loyal to his brother. Also, we did see JR for the only time take a swing at Bobby.
     
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  13. Kenny Coyote

    Kenny Coyote Soap Chat Dream Maker EXP: 12 Years

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    With all the talk about Pam and Bobby recently in the most likable character poll, it made me want to revisit this thread. I think Pam vastly underestimated Bobby's capabilities. Who was there for Pam during her depression? Bobby was. Who was there for Pam when she tried to jump off the roof of a building? Bobby saved Pam's life that day, pulling her back from the edge as she was about to go over it. When Pam was so desperate for a baby that she couldn't possibly wait the two years to adopt like everybody else has to, once agin, Bobby came through for her.

    Then, when it's finally a situation where Bobby is in his darkest hour and really needs the love and support of his wife, what does Pam do? She splits! If you've got any kind of conscience, how can you do that to someone who loves you so much, who has treated you remarkably well, and has come through for you every single time you were in a crisis? For that reason, it would amaze me if Pam remained as well liked a character as she had been in the previous seasons. Maybe she didn't.

    Bobby consistently came through for Pam in her hour of need. Pam didn't see any problem with Bobby's ethics there did she? When she found out that Bobby was trying to (what he thought was) steal his brother's son to give it to Pam, she had no ethical problem with that. Why? Because it was for Pam! If something unethical is done and it's for Pam, then fine. If Bobby does does something even a fraction as unethical in business, then her reaction is quite different isn't it? Then she says: "You're not the man I married"! It's so one-sided. Marriage is a give and take relationship and that's not supposed to mean Bobby gives and gives and Pam just takes and takes.

    I like that dialogue you quoted. There was a very similar conversation between Bobby and Pam that's also from a similar time period. Sometimes you see a conversation and you're so disappointed with how a character who you generally like, happens to react and you wish you could have written his response.

    Here they were in a similar conversation and Pam was once again worrying that everyone would get hurt as the result of the contest between Bobby and JR. Then Pam said something curious. Pam said to Bobby that most of all she was afraid that he would get hurt. I've said it before, but I think Pam vastly underestimated Bobby's capabilities. A man would get tired of that. It's one of those times it would have been great to have been able to write a response more in keeping with Bobby's true character:

    Pam: Most of all, I'm afraid you're going to get hurt.

    Bobby: Pam, I'm in a contest for control of Ewing Oil - the company my daddy founded. You've gotta realize just how much the opportunity to run my daddy's company means to me. I've always backed you up whenever you went after anything that was valuable to you. Now I've got something that means a lot to me and I'm asking your for the same kind of support I've always given you. It's gonna be a hell of a fight, but nobody but me and JR has to get hurt if they just mind their own business and stay out of it. Pam, you worry too much abut me getting hurt. Anything truly worth having is worth fighting for. If I've gotta take a few lumps in a fight to win control of Ewing Oil, I'll do it and I'll do it gladly. Remember, you married a fighter. It's one of the things that attracted you to me. You didn't marry a puss.

    Damn, I'd like for Bobby to have said something more like that!

    It's my opinion that they wrecked the character of Pam in season 6, having her abandon Bobby when a situation finally arose when instead if Pam badly needing Bobby's support, it was Bobby who needed Pam's support. They had tremendous potential there to show that Pam could be there for Bobby just like Bobby had always been there for Pam when she needed him and they dropped the ball. I don't know that the audience ever looked at Pam the same way again. Some mistakes are critical and it's damn near impossible to undo the damage of a critical mistake like that one.

    They already had the dysfunctional unhappy couple with JR and Sue Ellen. Here they had the opportunity to show at the other side of life, they had the opportunity to show a truly great couple and it would have been very satisfying to watch. They decided to go negative with it and show both marriages go bad but I think there has got to be contrast - it's ever so much more interesting when they reflect both the good and bad aspects of life instead of focusing exclusively on the negative aspects.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
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  14. Sarah

    Sarah Super Moderator EXP: 21 Years Staff Member Original Member Since 1998

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    Great post (and thread!)

    I never really liked Pam the way I'm 'supposed to'. And I find it hard to explain because I love JR (but hate some of his actions) and of course I adore Sue Ellen. Pam is supposed to be the likeable one and while I don't dislike her, I do agree with a lot of what you say. I think it's to do with Pam always wanting everything her own way and to be perfect, then kicking off when something didn't please her. Like dumping Bobby but then moaning because he was with Jenna. Things like that.
     
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  15. Kenny Coyote

    Kenny Coyote Soap Chat Dream Maker EXP: 12 Years

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    First, thank you for the compliments @Sarah.

    I empathize with you because I also probably don't "like Pam the way I'm supposed to" but I did like her very much in the early days of the show. I think in the first 5 seasons (DVD count) she was a good, kind, sweet woman. Pam was also a very vulnerable woman. I never held that against her; I think vulnerability is a very human quality.

    I think you hit the nail on the head when you said Pam wanted things her way, for things to be perfect, and when she was faced with adversity, it was too much for her. A number of times she actually left Bobby, presumably in search of a nice life that's easy, where nothing ever gets stressful or challenging. Pam could have looked to the ends of the earth for that and not have found it. It doesn't exist!

    I wish Pam had shown more gratitude for all the effort Bobby gave in helping support Pam when she was going through highly stressful times and realized that now it's her turn to love and support him while he's going through a difficult time of his own. She just never showed that type of gratitude and it was disappointing to me as someone who had always liked Pam in the past.

    There's something called reciprocation - when you give back to someone who has done a lot for you. Bobby just gave and gave to Pam but she wouldn't give back to Bobby when he needed it!

    I think Pam, with the likable qualities she displayed in the first 5 seasons, would have done much better to say to Bobby: "You've always been there for me when I needed you. Now you're the one who is going after something that is truly meaningful to you - the way that having a baby was meaningful to me. You've found something that truly matters to you. I know how much it would mean to you to win control of Ewing Oil - to be able to continue Jock's legacy. I realize you don't just want Ewing Oil for yourself; you want the ability to hand it down to Christopher one day. I appreciate that. I know it's going to be a tough battle for you with JR, but I believe you're tough enough to take whatever this fight with JR may bring, and you deserve for me to support you in going after what you value just as you supported me when I as going after what was important for me. I'm behind you 100 percent Bobby."

    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
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  16. Sarah

    Sarah Super Moderator EXP: 21 Years Staff Member Original Member Since 1998

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    You're welcome @Kenny Coyote

    Maybe as you describe above was how it should have been - like you say that contrast. Without mudding the waters between fiction and reality, I maintain again that sometimes the writers did screw up. The Pam you describe here, probably should have been how Pam was supposed to be, but something changed that. JR's character had become so powerful that it could be that writing for her slipped....not sure, just a thought.
     
  17. Kenny Coyote

    Kenny Coyote Soap Chat Dream Maker EXP: 12 Years

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    Oh, I also think the writers did sometimes screw up - I think to myself "Pam wouldn't have said that" or "Bobby wouldn't have said that." Times like those I would have loved to be able to have them say something more in character for them and that's because they did have good, definite characters and I give the writers a lot of credit for creating those compelling characters. Sometimes though, they had the characters do things or settings that just didn't seem to be believable, given everything we knew characters already. When a characters does or says something that's not them it's frustrating and it feels odd. I instantly get the feeling - no, that isn't them!

    This particular situation - the way Pam left Bobby and the things she said to him in the preceding episodes is something that I think hurt Pam's character badly. In my opinion, the audience wanted Pam and Bobby to be the couple that stood by each other through anything because they loved each other that much. I think in a show like Dallas that had so many storylines that were negative, Pam and Bobby had to be the couple that showed the audience: Even midst all the problems, all the dysfunction and negativity, look at Bobby and Pam - they love each other and they are proof that no matter how bad life can sometimes get, life can be awesome too!
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
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  18. Lastkidpicked

    Lastkidpicked Soap Chat Well-Known Member EXP: 11 Years

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    You are right about that-- and on the flip side, sometimes the writers get things PERFECTLY right. Another example comes from the contest storyline.

    Bobby uses one of J.R.'s henchmen, Carl Daggett, to arrange the prostitute to set up George Hicks.

    Going along, Bobby thought that even though he was getting down in the mud with J.R., he was doing it out of necessity and it would only be a one time thing.

    When Bobby reported to Carl Daggett that the set up worked perfectly, Daggett smiled and said, "Works every time".

    The look on Bobby's face showed what he now knew. Getting down in the mud is not a one time thing. Once you have sold your soul, you have sold it.

    And Bobby shared with Pam that the contest changed him fundamentally. He could never be the pure "good guy" again. He was changed.
     
  19. Kenny Coyote

    Kenny Coyote Soap Chat Dream Maker EXP: 12 Years

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    I agree the writers get some things perfectly right and we should give them credit for that and not only have most threads about the downfall of Dallas.

    Something they got right was when Bobby was confiding in Katherine and told her: I was never a knight in shining armor, I ever wanted to be! There's nothing I've done in the contest for Ewing Oil that I hadn't already done before."

    So, I don't think Bobby was ever a saint or a "pure good guy" and he could not have been that running an oil business. Had he tried to run an oil business that way, his competitors would have eaten him for breakfast. Pam is the one who pressured Bobby to het into running the business, in the very first episode. Well, if she wants that, then she's also got to accept Bobby becoming the harder more aggressive man he had to be to survive and flourish in that environment. Becoming a harder, more aggressive man is not "selling your soul." He became what he had to be to compete in that environment but the key thing here is Bobby never initiated the use of underhanded tactics. His blackmailing of Hicks was a defense against JR bribing Hicks. If someone attacks you and you fight back are you both the same? One is assault and the other is self defense! Had Bobby initiated the use of illegal tactics against someone fighting fair, then I would agree with you, but that's so different from what we saw happen.

    Frankly, I don't think that what Bobby did, blackmailing Hicks, was something he ever should have told Pam about. The key to Bobby keeping a good marriage was realizing that you don't tell your wife very detail about what goes on when you're working in such a cutthroat business. A man working in that environment has got to keep his marriage and his business life as separate as possible.

    The way he acted at work was not how he treated Pam - it should not have had an effect on their marriage. Bobby was always good to Pam regardless of what he was doing at work. Who was the first one to start seeing someone romantically after the break-up? It was Pam! Bobby was still so in love with Pam he couldn't think of seeing another woman right away. Yet Pam, the one who was so full of sanctimonious, self-righteousness, looked pretty comfortable being in France with Mark. That sheds a different light in things, doesn't it?

    Could Bobby be that "good guy" again? I absolutely think so. I know it's possible for some people at least. I know a guy who was talking about a time in his career when he too had become a very hard, aggressive men in response to the environment he was working in. He said: "I think back to some of the things I did back then and I don't think I'd be able to be like that now." He was being very sincere. He seemed amazed at some of the lengths he went to to get ahead quite a few years ago, and he'd changed so much since then, he just didn't think he could be that guy again. He's become so much more ethical and an all around better man!

    So yeah, I've seen it: Going from the pure good guy to becoming ruthless can and does happen in real life, but the change from ruthless, unethical guy to a very good man also happens. It even happens to the same guy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
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  20. Lastkidpicked

    Lastkidpicked Soap Chat Well-Known Member EXP: 11 Years

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    The reason I used that phrase is that Bobby felt as if he lost part of himself during the contest. He lost part of his soul. And I agree with you that he was able to regain the "Good Bobby" that we all know.

    Do you remember the scene during the contest when Bobby was feeling bad about all of the dirty tricks. He walked into J.R.'s office and J.R. was upbeat and going on about something.

    Bobby's comment to J.R?

    "You seem pretty chipper for a man who just ruined the lives of half a dozen people."
     

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