the science fictional element of Val in Tenessee

[abbylexis]

The thread about Shula/Oregon inspired me.
One thing that really appealed to me about the Shula plot was the "Lost in USA" in a remote areas away from the big city.

There's something freaky, twilight zonish about Val stepping into "unchartered Terrority" in the middle of nowhere not knowing who she is. It's as if she stepped into these fictional dimension fantasy type stories where she is in an altnernate world to the real world. The claustrophobia, the new characters (her boss, Parker ect, the people at the restaurant) along with the setting and the fact that Val thinks she's someone else (a character in her book) added to a sense a freakiness. This being accentuated with external forces trying to bring her back to reality, her memory and Parker Winslow who knows the truth but he's blocking her from going back to reality. Hitchcock would have had a field day. It reminded me of an old movies I used to watch as a kid that used to scare me of people trapped in confined territories trying to get out, like Mental Institution or kidnapping.

Melrose Place did a similar "trapped" theme story in season 4 with Kimberley's alter personality Betsy kidnapping Dr Peter Burns in a mental institution. Peter suddenly is trapped and can't get out with everyone believing him to be crazy when in fact it's Kimberley who suddenly becomes the doctor, the storyline in a weird way creeped me out.

I had the same feeling wathing ROOTS.
Do you guys also get the same experience when watching movies about people being trapped in a freaky setting that they can't get out.

[jockistheman]

Yeah the Shula storyline was almost like a Twilight Zone episode in some ways.

[abbylexis]

I know, it's amazing how many new things you can pick up after years and years of watching Knots Landing.

From the "three sisters" episode to Cathy/Ciji to Val in tenessee, Knots Landing did have a "freaky" side. but they did it very well, usually mixing these types of storylines on soaps tend not to work, but Knots Landing did it better.

[sunshineboyuk]

The Three Sisters is David Jacabs favourite Knots Landing episode - he mentioned it at the Museum of Tv - it's also my fave , it's genius on every single level and each and every one of the cast are brilliant ...Val in Shula , Three Sisters , Jill in season 10 and Greg/Paige and Ted in the season 11 opening are all science fiction esque ... It's something about the " characters contained or trapped " aspect of the sci fi genre that these storylines echo.... It's also something about the slightly ludicrous insanty of these plots that really works.
I watched the entire two seasons of The Colby's as sci fi and it works. It is sci fi
http://www.soapchat.net/showthread.p...ght=the+colbys

[Knots Man]

Oh how I loved "Three Sisters" and any other edition that portrayed the characters on such a level.

As for Shula (cracking name for a Knots spin off), I thought it was the best part of the whole stolen babies storyline. Yeah Yeah....I know I keep banging on about the fact it was the investigation led by Karen that first got me ever hooked on Knots and I am eternally grateful for those 9 or 10 golden installments in latter S6. However, back in 1994 when I got to see Knots re-run in it's entirety on UK Gold, I had a new sense of appreciation for the Tennessee editions since I knew the characters far better then than I did when the story first aired in the UK back in 1988. And when you think of Val's trip to Shula, it's a fantastic journey to take. I think we should all be entitled to take two or three months out of our lives like Val did and visit one place on earth that really makes us happy. I don't know where I'd choose...the street I grew up in? My favourite holiday destination as a child? I think we should all be entitled to return to a place where we can forget all our troubles and journey into a timewarp like Val did.

However knot only did they take Val on such a journey, but they built a whole new town right around her. It was as if the series was starting over again. We watched and waited to see what friends Val would make, would she fall in love? And of course we'd hold our breath when faces from her past would arrive. Would she remember them? Again, the starting over element. Imagine if you will our brand new nightime soap opera called Shula. It airs each Thursday night at 10pm on CBS (and on Monday afternoons in the UK ) and in Episode 2, we are introduced to this fascinating (if knot slightly nutty) new character called Verna. Verna Ellers to be precise. In Episode 4, a private detective seems to be following Verna. What information is he trying to uncover? In Episode 5, a face from Verna's past arrives but Verna can't remember who she is. Then in Episode 6, a mysterious handsome stranger arrives claiming to be Verna's ex husband. What is her secret? Is she on the witness protection programme? Tune in next week for more...

See what I mean? It's like a brand new show with stereotypical situations such as the arrival of a long lost relative every week like early Knots or Golden Girls for that matter.

Back on Knots Landing though, and remember when she did finally recognise one such face (Gary), we were all given the payoff we'd waited on - a reunion (albeit a brief reunion) between Gary & Val in the bedroom mirror on her wedding day! Suddenly, our beloved show had turned into a Twin Peaks style town with lots of weird and wonderful characters to enchant and this amazing couple with such chemistry in the middle. You even got a sense of why Val loved the ocean so much in this story. There virtually wasn't even a sign of a stream or a trickle of water let alone an ocean where Val could release all that burning energy. No wonder she loved her morning jog when she moved out to the West Coast...

That's it! I'm off to watch Season 6 again. Starting from "Message In A Bottle" onwards

[abbylexis]

Interesting points, Knots Man, about as if the show began again.

As you all know, episode 111 was my very first Knots Landing episode, I watched a few season 6 episodes and then really got into the show in season 10 during Jill's craziness. and I was very confused considering how different the show and couldn't recognize the characters but Val.

I have a freaky weird Knots Landing experience in trying to link episode 111 to when I started watching the show(I talked about that in another thread) as if I was watching a new show, i talked about mixing characters and assuming all the characters were new characters except Val even though they had all been there in season 6 minus Jill and Paige.

So I was discovering Knots Landing for the first time, I would occasionely go back to episode 111 and I had assumed that episode 111 must have been the first episode. Recollecting the plots, it seemed as it it was a new. All I remember was Val starting a new life in a new town after the nervous breakdown and getting that job in the restaurant.

So, I assumed that all the other characters (Mack, Gary, Abby, Greg, Karen) that I didn't remember seeing in season 6 were characters that she had met when she began her new life in a new town.

I went for years assuming that episode 111 was the first episode, until I actually sat down to watch the pilot in 1994 and was even more suprised to see that the show was so different than episode 111 (season 6) who was different than season 10.

That's another "freaky" thing about Knots Landing which I love for its brillance, the fact that you're watching the same show but it constantly feels like a different show. It's as if you watch 3 or 4 different shows considering the changing settings, sets of characters and types of storylines, opening credits ect.... and the beauty of it all is that it's the same FREAKING show.

I haven't seen any other show in my tv history watching that has that factor, not even the other 80's.

Melrose Place is somewhat the only show where I went through that same process, I had watched early season 1 episodes and when I got into the show it was season 4 which was 1000% different like another show. As I was watching season 4 in re-runs, season 5 was airing on primetime and was 1000% different than season 4 and all was happening on the same show.

[Joshua Slow]

Yes, yes. KNOTS changed with the times, and for the most part, in a good way--because it didn't lose sight of its middle-class roots.

And, yes, the Verna Ellers storyline almost has a science-fiction element to it. Valene so wanted children to make her feel complete, but then, in the different silhouette of Verna, she doesn't want them at all. "Verna had a lot more freedom and energy than Valene," Joan van Ark has said.

Val's identity crisis runs into all kinds of far-reaching corners of the abyss. Her need both to nurture and to be nurtured is squelched, and she attaches herself to all matter of unforeseen things in order to feel complete and connected. Her mind's voyage is insane and surreal, yet like a good drug trip, full of esoteric underpinnings which seem very natural and fluid.

[abbylexis]

But the beauty of it all is that it's all believable and way over the top at the same time but never beyond ridicule which could have easily been, but Knots Landing have a way of writing these plots like THree sisters (one of my favorites episodes) not for the viewer to feel like "this is out of touch" and that's beautiful.

I'm sure that if Knots Landing had done a "Val abducted by the aliens" type of plot you still wouldn't feel like you were cheated. Maybe with that one. But you get my point.

I think Knots Landing's low exposure and lack of high ratings worked for the better of the show, writers were never pressured by ratings and had the freedom to take their show into whatever direction, experiment, try out new things and didn't have the network execs telling them to take the show in a certain direction.

david jacobs said that many times CBS wouldn't care about looking at their outlines for a new season, the way they meticously did with Dallas.

This also allowed the show to go on and on. I still think there's some thruth about "they forgot to cancel us" line,

With steady audience every season, CBS probably kept checking the green line for a new season

CBS Executive: Next.... Knots Landing, same numbers as last year. Good. Next show.

There was more creativity and flexibility which happens when people aren't under pressure.

[jockistheman]

Abbylexis, I agree, I think the fact Knots wasn't a megahit in the end was a blessing. Dallas, which had been brilliant kind of got trapped by its success. They couldn't re-invent too much because of the "it aint broke dont fix it" way of thinking was too entrenched. Knots lived on because it had a very loyal core that always stayed--just enough to always keep them on the air. It was able to change and adapt while still clinging to its central theme. That's why we have the different "eras" - the cul-de-sac, Abby the tycoon/Lotus Point, the Sumner Group era.

[Knots Man]

David jacobs said that many times CBS wouldn't care about looking at their outlines for a new season, the way they meticously did with Dallas.

This also allowed the show to go on and on. I still think there's some thruth about "they forgot to cancel us" line,

Again, 100% right Abbylexis. I think it was also a case of CBS trusting David Jacobs. Much and all as Larry Hagman had great passion for Dallas and certainly knew the series inside out, in the latter years, both he and Leonard Katzman had to accept some of the responsibility for the show's quick demise. Rather than attempting to keep the series evolving, they kept churning out the same style of stories year after year. In the show's last two years, Cliff Barnes was still trying to get his hands on Ewing Oil and even when he went to work with JR & Bobby, we then had Carter McKay trying to steal the company. The stories on that show were the exact same in the final year or two than they were during the first year or two.

Whereas CBS didn't have to worry with any show that had David Jacobs at the helm. They trusted his judgement because they knew he made good television and took personal responsibilty for the show and when things weren't right he changed them to either keep the show fresh or (in the case of Season 13) to save the show. Jacobs' own admission in the 13th Season that he wanted to rescue the show because he didn't want it to end "because it got bad" demonstrates this responsibility.

I always have and always will say that we as fans, were really lucky to have David Jacobs as our top man. Aaron Spelling and the team behind Dynasty & the various Dallas producers over the years were knot half as skilled when it came to carving out really GOOD television...

[sunshineboyuk]

There was more creativity and flexibility which happens when people aren't under pressure.

I think they were under a lot of pressure though , from what Mike Filerman says in the chat they had real trouble linking all the characters together in a season 4/5 way and they always struggled to make the show one big tapestry , I remember him saying this was a really big problem and every year they worried that they couldn't do it all again.
A hit show like Dallas can effectively run it's self , they stick to the same old thing but Knots had to go that bit further to keep itself alive and interesting because it wasn't " formatted" ... I think the pressures on Knots were great and different. They all worked much longer hours on Knots ... I suspect the pressures were very great keeping it all going .....

[sunshineboyuk]

Jason: And of course you gave her some really high octane story lines,
didn't you, with Chip and that whole saga with Ciji? I mean, she was right
in there and it really, really worked.

Michael: It did. I think that one of things that we successfully achieved,
and I don't know how we did it, because every year I would lose sleep over
it, because I was so - I just - I said, "Oh my God, we're never gonna be
able to do it this year, we'll never be able to do it", is tying all our
people into a story.

Jason: Yeah.

Michael: And that's what the Ciji story did and that's what the Chip story -
I mean, it really tied everybody in. And that's when we were the most
successful.

Jason: Yes.

Michael: It was always really, really hard to do, because we were not a
family saga the way DALLAS was, you know, where things could happen under
one roof, and when you're jumping around like that, it's really very, very
difficult, and I must take my hat off to David and all the writers on the
show. I mean, Ann Marcus was the one who came up with the Ciji character and
the Ciji story.

Jason: Oh really? Wow.

Michael: She was just - she was terrific for us. You know, she really - when
the show was really having a lot of problems towards the very end, toward
our last couple of years, when we had to shut down and let a lot of people
go, we brought her back in and she really helped us get that last two years
back on track. And that's when David and I realised that it was over.

Jason: Yeah. Because I guess with a show like KNOTS LANDING, it's not as
simple as saying, "Well, let's introduce ten new regular characters", is it?

Michael: No, you can't, you can't. I mean, look at Paige. She came in - we
tried, you know, to have another Donna, you know, or another Abby. That's
how she was introduced. As she evolved, she became a heroine!

Jason: Yes.

Michael: You know, she became a good girl. We didn't have a bad girl. We
kept floundering for a bad girl and, you know, Kathy Noone, though she was,
you know, bad in her own way, didn't really fit that role and I just didn't
- David and I think we were tired - and, you know, everybody was gettin' a
little older, so it was like, "Who are you gonna bring in to be a femme
fatale?"

Jason: Yes, it's true, isn't it? And can we just talk about your own career
a little bit more, and perhaps just some of the other things - work - you've
done, and talk to you a bit about FLAMINGO ROAD?

Michael: Oh, I loved that show.

[abbylexis]

There was more creativity and flexibility which happens when people aren't under pressure.

I think they were under a lot of pressure though , from what Mike Filerman says in the chat they had real trouble linking all the characters together in a season 4/5 way and they always struggled to make the show one big tapestry , I remember him saying this was a really big problem and every year they worried that they couldn't do it all again.
A hit show like Dallas can effectively run it's self , they stick to the same old thing but Knots had to go that bit further to keep itself alive and interesting because it wasn't " formatted" ... I think the pressures on Knots were great and different. They all worked much longer hours on Knots ... I suspect the pressures were very great keeping it all going .....

But it's more internal pressure than external pressure. They didn't have the network (other than the budge cut issue) on their necks for ratings, ratings, ratings which usually happens when a show is number 1.

The internal pressure was how to keep the better and better. This pressure usually comes from yourself and it's what I call the good pressure because you want to get better and better. I used to be like that in school

but I see what you mean....

[Joshua Slow]

Oui, je suis d'accord, abbylexis.

I think KNOTS LANDING proved itself in a good, positive way because it wasn't struggling so much to be DALLAS or DYNASTY, it had its own unique middle-class flavor. Plus, when you are number one, sometimes you have nothing to prove, nowhere to go--and the producers-network may adopt the attitude, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." And that's where pride goes before the fall. DALLAS was sort of like this--well-done but highly repetitive.

[Knots Man]

Oui, je suis d'accord, abbylexis.

I think KNOTS LANDING proved itself in a good, positive way because it wasn't struggling so much to be DALLAS or DYNASTY, it had its own unique middle-class flavor. Plus, when you are number one, sometimes you have nothing to prove, nowhere to go--and the producers-network may adopt the attitude, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." And that's where pride goes before the fall. DALLAS was sort of like this--well-done but highly repetitive.

I agree with the "well done but repetitive" comment

[TommyK]

I don’t know how I missed this thread the last time I was surfing the forum. Marvelous topic, abbylexis, and stunning posts by yourself, sunshineboy, and Knots Man, among others. Yah, Shula is a gem, and so daring and rich. It’s the kind of thing that only writers teeming with confidence would try. As I’ve mentioned before, it’s the only part of Season 6 that I out-and-out love, but what a striking achievement it is.

(Peripherally, and not at all related to sci-fi, although related to the posts later in this thread about Knots reinventing itself, it reminds me in some ways of the breeziness with which Lechowick and Latham later craft the Sumner Group in Season 10. Again, writers riding a wave of creative success – in this case, the Val/Jill plotline – create a new universe for us, and don’t plant the seeds slowly, they just invent it wholly formed. One moment, Sumner’s telling Paige, “I’m moving our offices downtown,” and the next, there we are, with Abby, Greg, Paige, and Ted, joined instantly by Bob and Mort, and later by Michael and Linda and Polly and Harvey and others.)

It’s funny to hear Shula described as “sci-fi,” though. It’s definitely in the “fish out of water,” “transplanted or trapped character” genre, which I guess rates a bit as sci-fi, but when I think of pure sci-fi, I think of things that Knots did least well. Tidal Energy, for one. (I’m sure the concept of tidal energy has great validity, but Knots made it seem like sci-fi.) Oh, and the Empire Valley batcave, for another. (Like Ed Wood, with a bigger budget.) Nothing to me reeks MORE of bad sci-fi than Gary taking his underground tour; compare that to the majesty of Shula just a few months earlier, and it’s an even greater travesty.

Of course, now I can’t remember: is the episode where Gary goes underground the same one in which Cathy gets married? As I recall, her wedding dress is kind of sci-fi, too, isn’t it? Dye it green, put her head in a bubble, and suspend her in orbit, and she could be one of those female creatures that hypnotize Dr. Smith on Lost in Space...

[abbylexis]

OMG, I hadn't thought about about Empire Valley. Yes, that's another very sci-fi like plot. Very creative.

[Joshua Slow]

Val's travels were more about inner space than outer space.