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Sonya in Tx
08-07-2007, 11:14 PM
Bush Signs Temporary Wiretap Law

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/08Aug2007_news19.php

With the passage of the Protect America Act of 2007, Congress has given President George W Bush virtually unlimited power to conduct electronic surveillance on emails and telephone calls entering and leaving the United States. It is difficult to see why any president, especially this one, should be given such powers. The development is particularly strange considering all the rhetoric and widespread condemnation by Democrat leaders and civil liberties groups alike over Bush's past disregard for the rules on electronic surveillance. It would seem that the Protect America Act gives a sort of retroactive approval for the Bush administration's previous actions, which a secret court created by the 1978 Foreign Surveillance Intelligence Act (FISA) ruled were illegal earlier this year.


Under FISA, administration officials are required to present reasonable cause for surveillance operations to secret courts set up under the act. Historically, authorisation has been practically automatic.


When news became public on July 31 that the FISA court had declared certain of the Bush administration's surveillance activities illegal, Mr Bush immediately began pressuring Congress to revise the FISA law to allow warrant-less interception of communications routed through America, and to do it before the annual congressional recess in August. First the Senate, and then the House, complied in passing the act as written by the White House, discarding an alternate bill by some of the Democrat opposition which would have placed more limits on such surveillance. To urge passage, Mr Bush left little doubt that those who opposed it would be branded as soft on terrorism, a mantra that was taken up even by some Democrats. Said Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein: ''The intelligence community is deeply concerned that chatter among suspected terrorist networks is up. I am concerned as well. We are living in a period of heightened vulnerability and must give the intelligence community the tools they need.''


The senator from California is right, of course. But does this mean there should be no limits on what governments are allowed in the name of stopping terrorism? As mentioned above, approval for surveillance by FISA courts has in the past been almost automatic, but it does require that a rationale be given. In pushing the ''revision'' of FISA, Mr Bush also said that the act was passed nearly 30 years ago and had not kept up with new technological developments. As the American Civil Liberties Union noted after the passage of the act, Mr Bush neglected to mention that FISA had been updated 50 times over those last 30 years, and 20 times since 9/11.


Apparently a large part of the administration's insistence on having total freedom in this regard is because the need for specific court authorisation would prevent the practice of ''data mining'', in which all incoming and outgoing emails and telephone calls are monitored for certain key words or phrases. It has been pointed out that such a practice is highly intensive in terms of intelligence manpower that might be better put to use elsewhere. At some point real agents must be employed in sifting through mountains of information to get to something that might be useful, or might also be planted as a decoy.


As well, it is widely believed that al-Qaeda operatives consider that all of their phone calls and emails are being watched, and therefore all important contact is person-to-person.


It is somewhat ironic that the Bush administration wants to be able to look into the private lives of its citizens and anyone who comes into contact with them without restriction, but they themselves take secrecy to an unprecedented level by claiming executive powers that would cause the US founding fathers to turn in their graves. True, the founding fathers never had to worry about anything like al-Qaeda. It may be necessary to surrender some freedoms, not only in the US, but in Thailand and elsewhere, but there is no reason that this should be done without judicial oversight.

____________________________

Hmmmm......

Mason
08-07-2007, 11:31 PM
I don't see what the big deal is. I'd rather have some gov't agent who doesn't even know me checking out my e-mails than get attacked by a terrorist. I have absolutely no problem with it and applaud President Bush to doing so much to maintain vigilance against terrorism in our country.

SnarkyOracle!
08-08-2007, 04:23 PM
This "vigilance" has nothing to do with terrorism.

Just as Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

HoustonCougar
08-08-2007, 05:41 PM
What shameful behavior on the part of Congress to pass such legislation in the first place

Mason
08-08-2007, 05:41 PM
What are you talking about? Of course, it's about terrorism!

And who said anything about Iraq OR 9/11???

SnarkyOracle!
08-08-2007, 05:53 PM
What are you talking about? Of course, it's about terrorism!
No. It's about politics and internal control.




And who said anything about Iraq OR 9/11???
How nice that you concede there's no connection between these things and the wiretapping.

Mason
08-08-2007, 05:55 PM
Once again, I have no idea where you're coming up with this stuff. Obviously, these are steps to ensure the safety of our country against terrorist action. How you say it's about "internal politics" is beyond me, because that has nothing to do with it.

SnarkyOracle!
08-08-2007, 05:59 PM
Once again, I have no idea where you're coming up with this stuff. Obviously, these are steps to ensure the safety of our country against terrorist action. How you say it's about "internal politics" is beyond me, because that has nothing to do with it.
It has nothing to do with terrorism--- we actually let that agenda "go" while manufacturing problems with Iraq.

The wiretrapping is all about suspending citizens' right for purposes of politics, under the guise of "protecting" us from Al Quaeda.

It's an old, old trick.

Mason
08-08-2007, 07:20 PM
Well, if this "trick" keeps us safe from terrorists, then I'm all for it.

BJR
08-08-2007, 10:12 PM
George W. Bush is acting like a dictator.

Our founding fathers would not support such an imperial president.

BJR
08-08-2007, 10:26 PM
Well, if this "trick" keeps us safe from terrorists, then I'm all for it.

<img src="http://www.libertystickers.com/sites/38289/images/boyisurewishbigbrother.jpg">

BJR
08-08-2007, 10:31 PM
I don't know. I'd rather be free and dead than alive and safe.

Mason
08-08-2007, 11:23 PM
So far, BJR, I actually do agree with you on Ron Paul. Right now, I'm hoping he gets the Republican nomination.

Sonya in Tx
08-09-2007, 12:10 AM
Let's face it folks.....one day we will hear of identity theft from phone taps put in place by Dubya and company. Who's watching Big Brother who is watching us?? Hmmmmm.......

Mason
08-09-2007, 12:18 AM
And of course that will be ALL Bush's fault just like every other evil in the world. :rolleyes:

SnarkyOracle!
08-09-2007, 12:19 AM
And of course that will be ALL Bush's fault just like every other evil in the world. :rolleyes:
Not all; just most.

Sonya in Tx
08-09-2007, 12:34 AM
And of course that will be ALL Bush's fault just like every other evil in the world. :rolleyes:

That's not what I'm saying Mason. I'm saying that operating in secret gives rise to the ability to abuse the power.

It's like a bank robbery being an inside job. :lolo:

BJR
08-09-2007, 01:51 AM
And of course that will be ALL Bush's fault just like every other evil in the world. :rolleyes:

I would never suggest that W. is responsible for all the evils in the world.

Mason
08-09-2007, 01:55 AM
That's not what I'm saying Mason. I'm saying that operating in secret gives rise to the ability to abuse the power.

It's like a bank robbery being an inside job. :lolo:

Oh, okay, I gotchya. :peace:

Sonya in Tx
08-09-2007, 02:39 AM
Oh, okay, I gotchya. :peace:

:lolo: :cheers:

Yeah, I can't say that Bush is responsible for everything evil. I mean, I was on Bushs' bandwagon when he said "Let's smoke 'em out..." about Bin Laden. I was so mad that a great big nuclear bomb dropped in Afghanistan wouldn't have made me bat an eyelash in the days after 9/11.

I do look back to what the founding fathers said about giving up a little freedom for security. When acts like 9/11 take place, it's these times that we have to watch what we do to secure our country.

I honestly think we would have done better to root out Bin Laden, but the oil is in Iraq after all....

BJR
08-09-2007, 04:57 AM
Sonya, on your point about operating in secret, I'd like to say that what angers me so much is that some people think conspiracy theories are inherently irrational, which is.... simply not the case.

The word "conspiracy" over the years has become associated if not synonymous with mental instability. Has our cultural intelligence lowered so much that now we can't question what we want to question in fear of being called out as a nutcase? What world are we living in? Orwell's?

Okay, so a person can disagree, but the mere discussion of it, the mere suggestion is condemned summarily.

Every day George W. Bush consolidates more and more power. This is not a conspiracy? If our founding fathers were transplanted into today's world they'd be calling for blood to run in the streets.

Sonya in Tx
08-09-2007, 06:18 AM
Sonya, on your point about operating in secret, I'd like to say that what angers me so much is that some people think conspiracy theories are inherently irrational, which is.... simply not the case.

The word "conspiracy" over the years has become associated if not synonymous with mental instability. Has our cultural intelligence lowered so much that now we can't question what we want to question in fear of being called out as a nutcase? What world are we living in? Orwell's?

Okay, so a person can disagree, but the mere discussion of it, the mere suggestion is condemned summarily.

Every day George W. Bush consolidates more and more power. This is not a conspiracy? If our founding fathers were transplanted into today's world they'd be calling for blood to run in the streets.


The founding fathers were very clear on what they wanted for this country. A government that you can 'see' what is going on. A government who governs least.....

But think of this BJR, had the INS done their job those terrorists would never have been in this coutry to see 9/11/01.....expired visa's and such.

Had the flight schools called the police/FBI because a bunch of middle easterners wanted only to learn how to steer a plane, but not take off and land.

Had the local police done their job in New Jersey in the weeks before 9/11, I believe Mohammad Atta would have been in jail for driving in excess of 100 MPH on an expired license.

Read the book "The Gift of Fear" and "Fear Less" by Gavin DeBekker. He is a security expert who talked about the nature of violent crime in the first book, and spoke of the events leading up to 9/11 for the highjackers. According to DeBekker, murderers usually want to get caught and do some pretty outrageous things to try and passively get into trouble, like in the example above of Mohammad Atta speeding on an expired license a week before 9/11. I think he was trying to get caught. Hmmm.....

Sarah
08-09-2007, 01:30 PM
Sorry lol I thought your post read "Bush has his jaw rewired" lol

I think I'm dyslexic.

lol

Sonya in Tx
08-09-2007, 09:02 PM
Sorry lol I thought your post read "Bush has his jaw rewired" lol

I think I'm dyslexic.

lol

Ha Ha! He needs to have his jaws wired shut.

fireweaver
08-10-2007, 12:36 AM
Ha Ha! He needs to have his jaws wired shut.
Then I guess it's time for another trip to the colon doctor.