Was Katzman overrated

[Pamela Barnes]

We all hear that Katzman was Dallas, without him Dallas would not of hit the heights it did.

But how good was Katzman really ?

He was instrumental in one season being wiped out, he ruined characters like Pam in a personal crusade to ruin anything Capice had implemented previously.

In fact he ruined most of the women characters.

Now for someone who was so clever I think he made many glaring mistakes. Lost sight of the audience and allowed the actors to take far too much control.

[Luke]

Agree 100% Pam!
It almost seems blasphemous to diss Katzman, but as much as I can see how much he contributed to Dallas, I can also see how much he ruined it equally.

Luke

[eaejr]

I will give Katzman the benefit of the doubt. I mean "Dallas" suffered from its longevity. I mean as with most shows, storylines lose creativity, actors become bored and eventually leave. "Dallas" also lost some great writers. Katzman was only as good as the talent (actors,writers) around him.

I will say he mishandled the exit of Victoria Principal's Pam character badly. He also rightly admitted he made a mistake killing off April. To this day, I still have mixed feelings about the J.R.-Cally marriage.

Katzman's absence was definitely noticeable in "War of The Ewings". Patrick Duffy made mention of that. The movie was okay but not as good as "J.R. Returns". However, it is hard to argue against the overall success of "Dallas". The first several years of "Dallas" was as good as it gets as far as acting,directing, writing,etc.;

[garry]

It's been mentioned on this forum before, but Katzman and Phil Capice really needed each other to bring quality to the show. When they had individual control the show faultered.

Producer, Howard Lakin commented in 2000 that Katzman HATED strong, forceful women. Susan Howard, Linda Gray and Victoria Principal all have strong personalities in real life and we all know what happened to them!

Katzman viewed Dallas as JR and Bobby's show with secondary characters revolving around them. So his focus in the later years became the brothers Ewing, with little regard to the secondary female leads.

[Principal Rules]

It's been mentioned on this forum before, but Katzman and Phil Capice really needed each other to bring quality to the show. When they had individual control the show faultered.

Producer, Howard Lakin commented in 2000 that Katzman HATED strong, forceful women. Susan Howard, Linda Gray and Victoria Principal all have strong personalities in real life and we all know what happened to them!

Katzman viewed Dallas as JR and Bobby's show with secondary characters revolving around them. So his focus in the later years became the brothers Ewing, with little regard to the secondary female leads.

I agree with you on this. I believe they needed each other to make a quality program. Proof of that was the last 4 seasons, we all saw what happened when the focus became solely on Bobby and JR and the core female characters weren't given a decent storyline to keep the actresses on the show. Miss Ellie, Lucy, Sue Ellen, Donna, and Pam were just as important to the success of Dallas as the male members of the Ewing clan.

Perhaps Katzman should have changed the name from Dallas to The Brothers Ewing then no one would have expected the women to be more than a prop.

[Sonya in Tx]

I always felt sorry for the way the women were treated toward the end of the series run. Victoria leaving after her character being dumbed down into oblivion. Linda being fired and having to have been saved by Larry. Charlene being basically kicked out because nobody was imaginative enough to keep her character active. Barbara leaving because her story lines became too lame.
I guess life mirrored the art as far as the writing was concerned on Dallas. Women come last if at all...:(

[Songbird]

Personally I always felt that Dallas needed strong female WRITERS. I know there were a few women writers but they really just did as they were told by the men who ran the shows.

Not to stray too far off the topic but, I grew up watching Gunsmoke. And watching it as an adult I noticed that when men wrote the shows, Miss Kitty was very needy. She always had to be rescued. But when a woman wrote the show, Miss Kitty was very strong and independent.

I see that same thing on Dallas. Phil Capice had the right idea. Dallas needed the women to be strong and independent. Those of us watching, liked them that way.

I think Katzman was responsible for the fall of Dallas. His old fashioned ideas of men being the premise of the show and women being secondary ruined a good thing. I fail to see how a writer can't come up with a decent story for the great females of Dallas. If the writers you have aren't cuttin' it, get fresh new writers. Imagination is endless. :)

[Stimpy]

I agree 100% & you should tell the people at Saturday Night Live that as well! that show hasn't been good since like (1995)! there's been a few sketches that were funny but it's just NOT like it used to be & Same thing goes for MADTV the shows just aren't good anymore like they used to be. & yea i know those are

just comedy shows & NOT Dallas but it's a bit of the same thing they should have gotten NEW Writers! i also like the women strong on Dallas. i actually like it when Sue Ellen gets along with JR, it's kinda nice NOT having them bicker & i

also enjoy it when she's sober as well & i can understand why Linda Gray got tired of being the drunk on the show. WHY they didn't have the ENTIRE Family admit they were drunks is BEYOND ME? they drank MORE liquor than a

Budweiser produces BEER! on the show & Larry did even during the show i think he said? i could be wrong about that though. but anyways i do agree women SHOULD be strong & NOT have to be rescued like on Gunsmoke, which is a show i've actually NEVER seen! nothing against it they just don't show it from episode #1 which is what i would prefer seeing it from.

[Ray&Donna]

It may sound cliche, but it's like the old saying: Absolute power corrupts absoutely. As producer, he held the show together. As executive producer, he caused all of his hard work to fall apart:(

[Barbara Fan]

I think that Dallas suffered when Phil Capice left and Larry and Lenny had just too much power
I agree that they didn't know how to write for female leads, and one by one they sadly left.

http://pcbbg.tripod.com/id57.html

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e307/dallascastpics/Barbara/Copyof0024.jpg

http://dallasphotos.tripod.com/index.html

[Sarah]

I admire and respect Leonard for what he gave to Dallas so the only thing I will say is that I did not like the direction he allowed the show to go in once Linda and Victoria left. One of my main gripes is the sudden introduction of characters who we had never heard of before but we were expected to believe played a central part in major characters lives -for me this was insulting. Also characters doing so many things that were, "out of character". I also do have a problem with men who think that women can't do certain things..

[maria]

I don't know if I'd say he was overrated but for the last 4 seasons he had WAY too much power. He choose to lose the original woman and re-place them with Sue Ellen, Pam and Donna wanna be's (Cally, April, Michelle). He made JR and Bobby DUMB on all fronts and didn't care that he lost Miss Ellie.

He kept people on the payroll that he liked and not the people the fans wanted to see. He snubbed his nose to Victoria, Linda and Susan and he paid for it in the ratings.

I think he became a huge egomanic and Dallas suffered for it.

[Tyler Barnes]

You say Katzman hated strong women, yet in later years, women walked all over JR.

Katzman's biggest mistakes were the way he handled Pam's exit, and the dumbing down of JR's character. Actually, if he'd handled Pam differently, maybe VP wouldn't have left. We'll never know.

I give him some credit for resurrecting the show, albeit briefly, after the disastrous dream season. Dallas gleamed again for one season, then began its gradual downfall.

Larry was part of the problem, too: He demanded such a godfather salary that they had to let the other characters go, one by one. Also Larry had as much creative control as Katzman in later seasons.

[garry]

You say Katzman hated strong women, yet in later years, women walked all over JR.

I was referring to Leonard Katzman in his personal life - not Leonard Katzman the script writer.

[Dynastie c'est riche]

I give him some credit for resurrecting the show, albeit briefly, after the disastrous dream season.
Right. It was very brief. That's why the dream explanation's is so pathetical. Such a mess for a little number of watchable episodes...

[James from London]

On the contrary, I think Leonard Katzman is sometimes made too easy a target on this forum. I can't help feeling that there is an awful lot that goes on behind the scenes of a programme like DALLAS that we just aren't privy to. There are all sorts of politics and pressures between producers and studios and networks that go on. Consequently, decisions are made--budgetary and otherwise--that affect what ends up on screen.

Sure, DALLAS couldn't sustain itself right to the end in the way that it had, but to say it's all because Uncle Lenny was a power mad misogynist, I just don't believe. That's too simplistic. No one, absolutely no one in the history of television had previously produced a series that became a phenomenon--an accidental phenomenon, at that--in the way that DALLAS did and having a tiger like that by the tail for so many years must have been an enormous pressure. I don't know what the real story is, but as I say, I'm almost certain there is a lot that goes on behind closed doors. Once one begins to dig, as the interviews on the KNOTS LANDING website over the last few years have shown, one begins to realise how much there is still to discover. If only the DALLAS actors had something more to tell us than squirting peanut butter stories and who loved Jim Davis the most.

[SnarkyOracle!]

BTW: Songbird's really right about Miss Kitty on "Gunsmoke" switching personalities depending on who wrote the show--- she was much more interesting strong than quivering.

And Stimpy's point about SNL is well-taken, if I understnd it. It sucked from '95 onward, for an incredibly long time, but it has finally improved over the last three seasons or so-- once a woman was made head writer... Not that that's a pre-requisite, but sometimes it can help.

Re: Katzman, I doubt he's given too hard a time, frankly. Yes, there are external pressures we dont hear or know about, but the flaws in "Dallas" that began to unfold seemed pretty closely aligned with Katzman's biases, and what silly things he thought could fly.

[Barbara Fan]

If only the DALLAS actors had something more to tell us than squirting peanut butter stories and who loved Jim Davis the most.

:D Dont forget the cufflinks stories and the success to a good marriage is 2 bathrooms!! ;) :hello:

http://pcbbg.tripod.com/id57.html

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e307/dallascastpics/Barbara/Copyof0024.jpg

http://dallasphotos.tripod.com/index.html

[Luke]

James,
Although I agree that Uncle Lenny often gets the brunt of critical feedback, I believe that he was the captain of the ship and although it may have been a first mate or ship owner that caused a wreck, the responsiblity still lies with the captain.

The mistakes often put on Dallas's downfall, ie the dream, the exits of the female leads ect ect seem to be directly connected to Katzman. Charlene Tilton has often said in interviews it was Leonard's decision to let her go. Linda connects Sue Ellen's repeated storylines at Uncle Lenny's feet. Phil Capice's departure is directly connected to Leonard, who refused to return to Dallas if he was still a part of the show.

Of course we must not forget Leonard Katzman was a huge part of the first 7 wonderful years of Dallas. But despite network execs and other factors, Leonard Katzman wrote and produced and was directly responsible for many contributing factors to the downfall of our show.

I think many of the stars feel like some here do, Uncle Lenny gave them thier jobs, bought them thier houses, fought for them, gave them away at weddings, ect ect, so are hesitate to be critical.

You can directly tie the dumbing down of J.R, Pam's horrible slow downfall, CT's leaving, Sue Ellen's leaving, the introduction of Cally, Vanessa, James et all, The dream, the HORRIBLE last episode at the feet of Leonard. He needed a balance.

I would never take away from what he gave us, but to me it was more than obvious, once TOTALLY in charge, he struggled in the role of captain.

I personally am tired of hearing about food fights and stories of them all holding that damn gun. ;)

Luke

[Beth Harmon]

If Katzman thought the MEN were the most important in Dallas, then how come the ratings suffered so badly when Dallas lost all of it's most important female characters like Miss Ellie, Pam, Sue Ellen, Donna, Lucy?

It makes me mad to think he held so little regard to Linda, Victoria, Barbara, Charlene and Susan's contribution to the show. :mad: If Old Lennie thought Larry alone made the show a success I bet he was in for a rude awakening when the ratings started to go down!:p

[SnarkyOracle!]

If Katzman thought the MEN were the most important in Dallas, then how come the ratings suffered so badly when Dallas lost all of it's most important female characters like Miss Ellie, Pam, Sue Ellen, Donna, Lucy?

It makes me mad to think he held so little regard to Linda, Victoria, Barbara, Charlene and Susan's contribution to the show. :mad: If Old Lennie thought Larry alone made the show a success I bet he was in for a rude awakening when the ratings started to go down!:p

Right.

Or Mandy.

[Beth Harmon]

Right.

Or Mandy.


Mandy was no great loss to the show, unlike Miss Ellie, Pam, Lucy, Sue Ellen and Donna. I am not saying this because of my personal feelings for the character. But when we lost the truly IMPORTANT female characters of the cast the show suffered as a result of it.

[SnarkyOracle!]

Mandy was no great loss to the show, unlike Miss Ellie, Pam, Lucy, Sue Ellen and Donna. I am not saying this because of my personal feelings for the character. But when we lost the truly IMPORTANT female characters of the cast the show suffered as a result of it.

Oh, that's what I meant: the important female characters, like Mandy.

She remains one of the most popular ladies on the show, ever.

[Beth Harmon]

Oh, that's what I meant: the important female characters, like Mandy.

She remains one of the most popular ladies on the show, ever.

She remains one of the most controverstial ladies on the show without a doubt.:p

[ValentineGirl]

After Lenny came back as head honcho and all the lead actresses started leaving...Victoria, Barbara, Susan, Charlene, and finally Linda, there really wasn't any great leading ladies on the show. Personally I did not miss Charlene or Linda.
But these were the main women and Dallas needed them to survive.

But the last four crappy years would have been much better with at least one hot chick on the show. And in my opinion the ratings may have shot up a bit if someone like Deborah Shelton had stayed around. Grant it most women hated her, I'm not one of them, but I think she would have had quite a few guys tuning in just to look at her. The woman is gorgeous. Mandy fighting JR and making his life miserable would have been great! At least better than the sh** we had to sit thru.

[Luke]

I am one of a few I think who LOVE Linda Gray, but also liked Deborah Shelton. (I think some have difficulty seperating the show and reality.) My favorite was LOIS CHILES, she was amazing!

But, Deborah was not a core member of the Dallas cast and unlike Linda, Victoria, Charlene, Barbara or Susan could not have made an impact on the show or viewers had she stayed or left.

Viewers wanted the core cast, Larry, Patrick, Linda, Victoria, Barbara, Jim, Charlene, Steve and Ken. No one else really came close. Howard Keel came the closest, but no one really penetrated that core.

Deborah did a good job as Mandy. For those who hate her, look at it realistically, she was fine, it is Mandy you dislike not Deborah, and for those Deborah lovers, don't overestimate her influence on the show. Beautiful yes, but not really able to carry much emotional wieght on her lovely padded shoulders in the acting department.

Luke

[Cliff Fan]

Re: Katzman, I doubt he's given too hard a time, frankly. Yes, there are external pressures we dont hear or know about, but the flaws in "Dallas" that began to unfold seemed pretty closely aligned with Katzman's biases, and what silly things he thought could fly.

I agree. I am willing to give Katzman all the credit in the world for his great work as line producer in the first seven seasons, but in no way do these past accomplishments serve as an absolute defense for the mistakes he made as Executive Producer - the worst of which (Pam's dream and Pam's exit) are pretty indefensible.

Given that the problems with Katzman's reign began almost immediately -the dream decision, the ruination of virtually every female character, nepotism (two sons and a son-in-law on the payroll as producers), cronyism (John Parker, Katzman's friend but the show's worst composer ever, being brought back as the show's favored musician), poorly developed and conceived plots and characters - I think it's reasonable to conclude that Katzman did not have the requisite taste and sense to run a show without a senior producer like Phil Capice in a position to veto his worst impulses (which apparently he did; as Katzman said at the beginning of Season 9, "Phil and I disagreed about a lot of things, continually, and it had been seven years of battling to get what I wanted to do." - well, we quickly got an idea of what Phil and Leonard may have been battling about.)

When all's said and done, I'd prefer Capice and Katzman together, but if I had to choose - I would take Capice over Katzman in a second.

[Kate Ewing]

cronyism (John Parker, Katzman's friend but the show's worst composer ever, being brought back as the show's favored musician)

I LOVED John Parker's music!! He did that great Sue Ellen music in Season 1, I think he did the great stuff in Black Market Baby and the Red Files, and he did the music in today's episode, The Fat Lady Singeth. What did you not like about it? I'm just curious, I'm not a music expert, but I know what I like.

[Cliff Fan]

I LOVED John Parker's music!! He did that great Sue Ellen music in Season 1, I think he did the great stuff in Black Market Baby and the Red Files, and he did the music in today's episode, The Fat Lady Singeth. What did you not like about it? I'm just curious, I'm not a music expert, but I know what I like.

I did like the music in today's episode, but for the most part, I'm not terribly fond of Parker's work - starting in Season 9, there is a lot of electronic and "jazzy" scoring that I found inferior to the orchestral scoring favored by Dallas's other composers - Bruce Broughton, Richard Lewis Warren, Lance Rubin, Jerrold Immel, and Angela Morley.

[SnarkyOracle!]

I agree. I am willing to give Katzman all the credit in the world for his great work as line producer in the first seven seasons, but in no way do these past accomplishments serve as an absolute defense for the mistakes he made as Executive Producer - the worst of which (Pam's dream and Pam's exit) are pretty indefensible.

Given that the problems with Katzman's reign began almost immediately -the dream decision, the ruination of virtually every female character, nepotism (two sons and a son-in-law on the payroll as producers), cronyism (John Parker, Katzman's friend but the show's worst composer ever, being brought back as the show's favored musician), poorly developed and conceived plots and characters - I think it's reasonable to conclude that Katzman did not have the requisite taste and sense to run a show without a senior producer like Phil Capice in a position to veto his worst impulses (which apparently he did; as Katzman said at the beginning of Season 9, "Phil and I disagreed about a lot of things, continually, and it had been seven years of battling to get what I wanted to do." - well, we quickly got an idea of what Phil and Leonard may have been battling about.)

When all's said and done, I'd prefer Capice and Katzman together, but if I had to choose - I would take Capice over Katzman in a second.

Bingo, on every point.

And even though Parker may have written some good scores early on (and on other shows), his work got steadily worse as "Dallas" did, supporting the "jokey" Green Acres flavor that was overtaking the series.

When he was gone in seasons 5, 6, & 7 (6, 7, & 8 on DVD), I didn't miss him, and can imagine any of those episodes having a Parker-esque score.

[Pamela Barnes]

I have never seen people be critical of Lenny, quite the opposite. I also believe that in the case of Dallas both Lenny and Larry held some very high power cards which was unusual for television. They could get people sacked, they could wipe out entire seasons and basically have a great deal of say on how the show progressed.

Of course there will be pressures from above and Im sure they were not overjoyed when the ratings went down. But at the same time I do believe that Larry and Lenny together held power on the show that was instrumental in its downfall.

[JR_fan]

In regards to the dream season solution I think you should put most of the blame on Larry for that one. He didn't like the direction the show was going and hence convinced Patrick to come back to the show along with Lenny. It's virtually impossible to bring back the Bobby character so they HAD to do something retroactive, hence the dream.

I think Katzman worked better with others rather then having all that power. The first 7 years were pretty darn good but Lenny didn't have all the power that he had in the last few years. DALLAS as it was constituted would've pettered out in much the same fashion anyways. It's very hard to keep storylines fresh and find things for everyone to do.

Things could've been worse, they could've kept the dream season in continuity without Bobby back. IMO the show would've gone off the air after another season or two if that had happened. So for as much as we may complain about the Dream Season solution it at least kept the show going for a few more years.

[garry]

I certainly wouldn't blame Larry Hagman for the Dream explaination. His motivation at the time was to eliminate Phil Capice and reinstate Katzman as producer. Katzman devised the Dream scenario, not Larry. Hagman never really got involved with the storylines during Dallas' run - he always put his faith in Katzman. However he did push for Charlene Tilton's return to the show in 1988, along with Victoria Principal. At least he was sucessful on one count.

[Pamela Barnes]

It was like an old boys network behind the scenes. Larry has discussed the fact openly that they decided to bring the men forward and decline the women characters. They did this at the expense of Victoria. I can appreciate them getting rid of Donna the biggest mistake was teaming Ray up with Jenna rather than using the opportunity to bring us some fresh blood.

But again I dont blame VP was quitting or Susan being pissed off. Victoria held a prime role during Patricks absense and I would not of been happy with the situation. It has been said the network played a role in the decision making but they also danced to Larrys tune. He struck exclusive deals, to the point the Dallas DVD was held up as he gets a major cut unlike any other actor in TV at that time and even today. He wanted the show to be fun and wanted his pals back on set. Totally looseing sight of the audience and the actors felt not to be part of that clique.

The only character to come of Dallas at the end unscathed was the character of Bobby who was not dumbed down. Just bitter and twisted. Sue Ellen was a cartoon character by the time she left and the same happened t JR.

[Sarah]

[QUOTE=Pamela]It was like an old boys network behind the scenes. Larry has discussed the fact openly that they decided to bring the men forward and decline the women characters. They did this at the expense of Victoria.


Don't you think Victoria would have left anyway..regardless?:wiggle:

[Pamela Barnes]

Nope not at all. Prior to Patricks return she was looking forward to her characters development on the show and at that point they would of paid her whatever to stay even if she did consider it. But she held quite a power card at that point.

There were reports that Victorias departure was not one sided and the network were happy to loose a big named figure from the show. Infact the womens pay slid and two characters left to make way for the big salery demands of Patrick (who had a major deal to return) and Larry.

It was Larry who tried to entice her back, especially when the ratings dramatically slid once she departed. In retrospect the show suffered far more post Pam's departure than it did when Patrick quit.

[CarlD]

To me, DALLAS was at it's best when Katzman and Capice worked together, seasons 1-7.