Period soaps

[Pamela Barnes]

I was a huge fan of Upstairs Downstairs watching the whole series on Granada Plus last year.

It was so great to have a historical drama with so many wonderful characters, it really was an excellent drama.

To be honest I get bored of our soaps, I love Corrie because its so well written and I think its something to be proud of but with soaps rammed down our throats at every given moment I really would love something different to watch.

For example I would love to see something like Corrie or Eastenders but set in the Victorian age.

[WalfordMafia]

that's a very interesting idea. i'm evidently a big fan of EastEnders, and i'd like to see something like that sorted out from the durge-pits it has been in for some time now. rather than real period, such as the Victorian or Edwardian era, i'd like to see something done with EastEnders, where the current four-times-a-week slog is totally put on the back-burners for, say, a month or two, and totally replaced with EastEnders, Albert Square, Walford London E20, circa 1960s. i'm only young, just 20, but am a big fan of soap operatic storytelling, and the capabilities of telling a story through a soap, and although i understand how badly EastEnders (my favourite reguardless) got everything wrong for the whole of last year, and how well Coronation Street is structurally written, i simply think watching ultra-classic Corrie is more entertaining than anything any contemporary soap has managed for years.

What i'd propose, is to see EastEnders produced for a month, telling a self contained story, set in the back-story of the current show, in the Albert Square of the 1960s, but with the production styles and values of 60s kitchen-sink style television dramas. There was a sort of equivalent with the earliest episodes of EastEnders (the Fowler/Beale years, 85-90) and the 60s Coronation Street, the way characters spoke was simply different, i can't really put my finger on what it was, but now, iin EastEnders especially, characters never say a single thing if it isn't attached to the plots. Pete Beale talked about the Tories in the first ever episode. I doubt many characters these days even realise who is in power! anyway, do you get what i mean, about the month break and revised storytelling. It's sort of what they did in about 1988, with the one-off Civvy Street, which i understand was fairly unsuccessful. But it was an admirable idea, and i think it'd be quite interesting to see it done more thoroughly.

[Toby]

This is a brilliant idea, "Walford Mafia." If CORONATION STREET was the TV equivalent of say, A Taste Of Honey then I'd love to see EASTENDERS done in the period style of something like UP THE JUNCTION or CATHY COME HOME.

By the way... :welcome:

[Mike]

I loved "Upstairs Downstairs" it was pure class, every episode never dissapointed. I loved the Pauline Collins character Sarah, in fact there wasn't a character i disliked in this, every one was top notch, scripts were brilliant, acting was superb and the theme music was delightful.
Why cant we make good drama like this anymore instead of endless crap about the emergency sevices ie hospitals, police, firemen etc etc.
I really enjoyed the recent remakes of "The Forsyte Saga" the first series was far superior to the second, but nevertheless, both were very enjoyable.

[Mark68]

I see you have mentioned THE FORSYTE SAGA. I thought the remake was excellent too. I must admit that I watched the original b/w series on DVD last month. All 24+ hours had me captivated. It really was a great production for the year.

[Toby]

One thing about British TV is that we do tend to be the very best at making period series - whether they be adaptations of classic novels or original historical drama.

The BBC were responsible for such glories as THE FORSYTE SAGA, THE ONEDIN LINE, POLDARK, WHEN THE BOAT COMES IN and THE DUCHESS OF DUKE STREET.

ITV were no slouches either. In addition to UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS and its spin-off THOMAS AND SARAH, they also made A FAMILY AT WAR (British precursor to the Australian series THE SULLIVANS), ENEMY AT THE DOOR (the people of the Channel Islands under German occupation during WW2) and SHINE ON HARVEY MOON, a comedy/drama set in the 1940's.

Truly excellent stuff, and some period drama is indeed awash with soapy aspects - ongoing storylines and long-term character development.

[James from London]

I'm watching UPSTAIRS, DOWNSTAIRS on DVD at the moment. Just as in all classic soap opera, from DALLAS to EASTENDERS (back in the day), we can see the way some characters (like Hudson and Rose) cleave to the sense of order and belonging that comes from their surroundings (even though it ensures that they will forever remain in servitude), while others (Sarah, Captain James) yearn to escape its confines. As a period drama, it has the benefit of hindsight; the writers know how world events will turn out and they can tie their characters to them. Where DALLAS and ENDERS were ultimately unable to move with the times and gradually became repetitive and irrelevant, UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS could reflect the social changes of English society and how that affected the lives of those in the Bellamy household. Nowaday soaps live in a weird, sort of quasi-reality. ENDERS especially still prides itself on being "gritty" and "real", yet has nothing to do with the real world or the even real East End. And, unlike CORRIE, it no longer has a strong enough sense of its own universe to shrug off pretensions to social relevance and just create drama and humour on its own terms.

[Toby]

A summary of my favourite period dramas.....

I CLAUDIUS
BBC, 1976

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004U12X.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Based on Robert Graves' books "I, Claudius" and "Claudius The God", this BBC production is an unsuspecting template for all the feuding families soaps that followed it and an undoubted influence on storylines in DYNASTY, BABYLON 5 and THE SOPRANOS. The perfect intersection of "high" and "low" culture - I CLAUDIUS deals with the soapy machinations amongst the Roman Imperial family set against the backdrop of the gradual decline of the Empire, flawlessly acted by the cream of British theatrical talent. The series is entirely studio-bound, but the performances are so mesmerising that you don't even notice. And though the orgy scenes may now be ever so slightly evocative of tame 1970's suburban wife-swapping, the show is still heady stuff, censored during its first screening in America.

DVD availability?: The complete series is available on DVD in both the U.K. and the U.S.

[Toby]

SECRET ARMY
BBC, 1977-1979

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0001MIR70.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Magnificent BBC drama, often remembered for its brooding, intense theme tune and title sequence encompassing shots of dark streets, tree-lined roads and railway tracks. SECRET ARMY deals with a Belgian resistance organisation, Lifeline, during WW2, who support the war effort by smuggling shot down Allied airmen down escape routes that eventually lead back to England. Brutal interrogation and certain death awaits the Lifeline operatives should they ever be captured by the Germans.

Lifeline is headed by crafty, cunning cafe owner Albert Foiret (Bernard Hepton) and his team comprises his singing mistress Monique (Angela Richards), two brave and beautiful beret clad sirens Yvette (Jan Francis) and Natalie (Juliet Hammond-Hill), square-jawed RAF agent John Curtis (Christopher Neame), Alain (Ron Pember), a swarthy farmer who works at Lifeline's wireless operator, the dignified Dr. Keldermans (Valentine Dyall) who provides medical assistance to the shot down airmen as required, and Max Brocard (Stephen Yardley), an expert forger and career criminal with suspect loyalties.

Ranged against them are the terrifying, bespectacled, silver-haired Sturmbahnfuhrer Ludwig Keeler (Clifford Rose), the head of the Gestapo who will happily break the Geneva Convention if it gets the results he wants. But he also has a softer side, shown through his romance with remote socialite Madeleine Duclos (Hazel McBride). His counterpart in the Luftwaffe is Major Erwin Brandt (Michael Culver), a pleasant, cultured man who sees breaking the escape routes as simply a job. He treats captured airmen well - a strategy designed to put them at ease and encourage them to talk. Later, Hans Reinhardt (Terrence Hardiman), a wounded former Luftwaffe flying ace joins the series.

What is refreshing about SECRET ARMY is that it eschews any moral finger-pointing - the Germans are not two-dimensional baddies but are often characters worthy of respect. One episode deals with the after-effects of an Allied bombing run on Berlin, from the perspective of the German officers. (Note: this was years before Wolfgang Petersen made DAS BOOT). Lifeline is often forced to act in an utterly ruthless fashion and kill innocent people to preserve the security of their organisation. War is ugly, and SECRET ARMY never shies away from that fact.

Though it may be perceived as a standard Boys' Own adventure, SECRET ARMY is far more complex than that, with characters growing and changing as the war continues. The third and final series is utterly harrowing - ironically, the fact that the war is coming to a close brings even greater danger to the characters on both sides, and their fates are often very surprising.

Unfortunately, the series is best remembered as being the inspiration for the spoof ALLO ALLO, with its comedic take on the war, but it really deserves so much better than that.

DVD availability?: The complete series is available on DVD in the U.K.

[Toby]

TENKO
BBC, 1981-1985

http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/postcards/images/tenko_lge.jpg

TENKO is another WW2 drama, dealing with events occurring on the other side of the world as British women struggled to survive in a prisoner of war camp ran by the Japanese military after the invasion of Singapore in 1942. Separated from their husbands and largely forgotten by the British War Office, these women - unsung heroines of the war - had to tolerate appalling living conditions in cramped huts, violence from the Japanese guards, disease, malnutrition and death. Against this harrowing backdrop, TENKO was essentially an uplifting series, showcasing the resilience of the human spirit under adversity.

Eschewing the taut thriller motifs of SECRET ARMY, TENKO was an examination of the everyday aspects of life under internment and the psychological changes it had on its characters, all with vastly different backgrounds and temperaments:

Marion Jefferson (Ann Bell) - a kindly, dignified upper-class army wife who becomes the women's leader in the camp.

Beatrice Mason (Stephanie Cole) - a stern-faced, no-nonsense doctor who runs the sickbay in the camp, a sickbay that doesn't have any medicine.

Rose Millar (Stephanie Beacham) - a spoilt, haughty socialite who led a very privileged life before the war and isn't used to going without her luxuries.

Blanche Simmons (Louise Jameson) - a tough-minded Cockney tart.

Sister Ulrica (Patricia Lawrence) - a formidable nun who is the leader of the Dutch section of prisoners.

Dorothy Bennett (Veronica Roberts) - a young woman whose husband and child are killed in the war. After this, she becomes hard and cynical, and turns to prostitution with the guards in exchange for cigarettes and other luxuries.

Christina Campbell (Emily Bolton) - a highly intelligent half-British, half-Chinese girl who has to work as the commandant's secretary. Because of her ethnic origin, she sometimes suffers racist prejudice from some of the other prisoners.

Kate Norris (Claire Oberman) - a likeable Australian nurse who helps Beatrice in the sickbay. Her boyfriend is interned at a nearby men's camp.

Nellie Keene (Jeananne Crowley) - another nurse in the sickbay. She is bisexual and falls in love with another woman in the camp.

Sylvia Ashburton (Renee Asherson) - a top general's wife who is racist and absurdly patriotic, refusing to bow and scrape before the Japanese.

Domenica Van Meyer (Elizabeth Chambers) - a rich Dutch woman who is stupid, snobbish, appallingly selfish and treated as a figure of ridicule by the other women.

Lady Jocelyn "Joss" Holbrook (Jean Anderson) - an elderly blue stocking, ex-suffragette and reluctant aristocrat who despite her advanced age is constantly thinking up schemes to defy the Japanese.

Verna Johnson (Rosemary Martin) - a rather grand woman who is the leader of the women's second camp. Self-centred, duplicitous and calculating, she is not amused when Marion and co. arrive at her camp, seeing them as a threat to the pecking order she has established.

Yamauchi (Burt Kwouk) - the commandant of the camp. A strict enforcer of the camp rules, but occasionally showing flashes of humanity.

The show was *hugely* popular at the time (average ratings were 14-17 million viewers per episode) and is still regarded as one of the BBC's best ever drama series today. TENKO was an intelligent fusion of historical accuracy and soap opera, its format allowing the series to incorporate war-related crises - the camp is a direct hit during an Allied bombing run in one episode - and social issues such as rape, stillbirth, homosexuality, suicide, abortion and euthanasia examined within the context of 1940's morality.

Originally axed after its second series, TENKO returned to TV screens by popular demand twice. The first time for a third series that advanced the story to 1945 and the attempts by the surviving women to come to terms with their new-found freedom and the second time for a Christmas special set in 1950, that examined the women's progress in rebuilding their lives since the end of the war.

DVD availability?: The complete series is available on DVD in the U.K.

[Toby]

THE HOUSE OF ELLIOT
BBC, 1991-1994

http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/postcards/images/elliott_lge.jpg

Created by Eileen Atkins and Jean Marsh who were previously responsible for UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS, THE HOUSE OF ELLIOT was a tale of sisters doing it for themselves in 1920's England.

Left penniless after their philandering father dies, the Elliot sisters, Beatrice (Stella Gonet) and Evangeline (Louise Lombard) work to establish their own fashion house, the eponymous House Of Elliot, slowly rising to respectabiliity amongst 1920's high society. As well as disagreements between the conservative Bea and the youthful Evie over the direction of the business and various crises affecting their latest "collection", the series took time to explore the sisters' personal lives, particularly Bea's troubled relationship with boyfriend Jack (Aden Gillett), who had a promising career ahead of him in "moving pictures".

Interestingly, this 1920's period drama was at once infused with a 1990's sensibility showcasing its two thoroughly modern heroines as genuinely progressive entrepeneurs in the world of high fashion and big business. In a storyline mirroring the regular tabloid exposure of sleaze MPs (e.g. David Mellor) in the early 1990's, Evie had an affair with a rising politician which brought scandal to the business and conflict between the two sisters.

Rather unfairly dismissed as a shallow, glossy romp by critics, it was nevertheless impossible to really take THE HOUSE OF ELLIOT seriously after it was mercilessly parodied by FRENCH AND SAUNDERS in one of their satirical sketches.

DVD availability?: The first series (of three) is available on DVD in the U.K.

[WalfordMafia]

...nowaday soaps live in a weird, sort of quasi-reality. ENDERS especially still prides itself on being "gritty" and "real", yet has nothing to do with the real world or the even real East End. And, unlike CORRIE, it no longer has a strong enough sense of its own universe to shrug off pretensions to social relevance and just create drama and humour on its own terms.

This is a very apt point. I think EastEnders is a perculiar entity. It now seems to have plunged into such a suffocating layer of crap, through such a prolongued period of other layers of crap, that it is going to struggle for quite a while to be anything close to relevant, or to what it thinks it is: top of the bill for what that show needs, and it feels urgent, is re-establishment. But i'll argue that it took Coronation Street up until a few years ago to really find the sustainable style which suits it. In the wake of the upstart soaps EastEnders & Brookside, Coronation Street was dishevelled through the 80s and 90s, remaining popular, but becoming numb and more anaemic with it's previously sharp characterisation and storytelling. A need to steer itself towards the elements Enders and Brookie [then] thrived on, coupled with ever-increasing-episode demand, left 90s Corrie not what it was in the 60s and 70s, and not what it is today. It took the Richard Hillman storyline for Corrie to find its most suited gear, and accelerate greatly. Everything about Coronation Street's 'sense of place' now feels confident. Enough so for them to be able to tell [almost] and story with the panache that it has quite effortlessly shown now for two years solid. I think Emmerdale too lacks much sense of place, it tells it's story like an American Soap... the village is a generic setting, dislocated from the storytelling. Transplant the characters anywhere, and nothing changes. Why has Emmerdale struck success recently it, to me, more down to EastEnders failing than anything.

With EastEnders now so knee-deep in the afformentioned crap, it can tell [almost] any story, without the any style whatsoever. There isn't anything definably 'Enders' in Walford at the moment, and that is where the show lacks big time. They need to take a breather from the incessant 'issue-a-minute' rigmaroll, and just get into the flow of showing the viewer Walford life, four times a week. I'm very interested in creating a world out of Walford... i'd love to have the power to develop the show for real in that way, because EastEnders has more elements which engage me than any of the other soaps, but it's a shame that none are put to use. I'm just now working on a couple of little proposals, just for the fun of it, which i'll post up here. The first is the idea I touted in my first entry on this thread, a one month retro-Enders replacement; and the second is the Walford i'd return to after this. Not a total rub-in-out ground zero in terms of everything, but certainly a new genesis in terms of storytelling and structure.

[James from London]

i'll argue that it took Coronation Street up until a few years ago to really find the sustainable style which suits it. In the wake of the upstart soaps EastEnders & Brookside, Coronation Street was dishevelled through the 80s and 90s, remaining popular, but becoming numb and more anaemic with it's previously sharp characterisation and storytelling. A need to steer itself towards the elements Enders and Brookie [then] thrived on, coupled with ever-increasing-episode demand, left 90s Corrie not what it was in the 60s and 70s, and not what it is today. It took the Richard Hillman storyline for Corrie to find its most suited gear, and accelerate greatly. Everything about Coronation Street's 'sense of place' now feels confident.

I totally agree. My theory is that both CORONATION STREET and EASTENDERS, in their first decade (the 60s and 80s respectively), did a commendable job of reflecting aspects of society that had not been seen before in popular TV drama (the Northern backstreets, the multi-cultural East End). In their second decade, (the 70s and 90s) social awareness took a back seat to an exploration of character and the developing sense of the series' own "mythologies" (Elsie Tanner, Annie Walker, Ena Sharples, Ken Barlow, Bet Lynch, Len Fairclough, etc. blossomed into wonderfully rich, three dimensional characters in the seventies, while in the nineties, the characters of Sharon, Michelle, Cindy, Arthur Fowler, Frank Butcher and Kathy continue to evolved before being written out of Walford, only to be replaced by arguably even richer characters with links to ENDERS' past: Carol and Bianca Jackson, David Wicks. I don't include the arrival of Barbara Windsor as Peggy - a popular, but I believe crucially misconceived, piece of casting). For both soaps, their second decade was their richest in terms of organically developed story lines and characters.

By their third decade, both shows were starting to lose direction. CORRIE's war time generation of actors (and subsequently the characters they played) all died in quick succession at the beginning of the 80s, and the "'ee Ena, 'ow times change" barside philosophising, which had been a huge ingredient of the series since the beginning, was gone, never to return. Those that remained became increasingly pantomimic (Bet Lynch turning from a genuinely tragi-comic character into old man in drag, the Duckworths replacing the Ogdens) and, compared to the socially aware BROOKSIDE and EASTENDERS, irrelevant (Curly Watts and Kevin Webster as Weatherfield's take on 80s youth culture). CORRIE in the 90s and ENDERS from '98 onwards (Gillian Taylforth's departure and Steve Owen's arrival heralded the beginning of the end) fell foul of the BROOKSIDE syndrome, otherwise known as "Event TV", in character development went out of the window (save for the mighty MacDonalds in CORRIE) to replaced by a queasy mixture of taboo "issues" (paedophilia, incest, rape, domestic violence - preferably all in the same scene) and sensationalist violence (explosions, attempted murder, buried bodies, etc.). I honestly think this is why BIG BROTHER became so huge when it started in 2000. It offered an attention to detail, to exploration of character and relationships and general unpredictability that none of the soaps had in years!

Whereas ENDERS has never really recovered from going four episodes a week, (characters come and go only to return then leave again, but with less and less relevance to the show's core) CORRIE has positively thrived since sneaking out its extra fifth episode on Monday nights. From Richard Hillman onwards, it has found a way of combining some elements of "Event TV" (it is still impossible to get married in Weatherfield without someone getting arrested at the altar or keeling over at the reception), with a return to detailed characterisation for the first time since the 70s. Compare the cancer story lines of Alma Baldwin at the end of the 90s (manipulative and contrived) and Ray Langton today (which doesn't even feel like a "cancer story line"; it's just a story about that man).

CORRIE's writers have done a wonderful job of restructuring their story telling. From night to night, you don't know what you're going to get. Will it be a piece of small, but beautifully observed, sitcom (the Book Club story line, the twins who think they're identical but aren't, the World According to Blanche)? Something more nightmarishly gothic ("Of course he's dead! I've got his brains all over my cardigan!")? Or a more traditional - but nonetheless unpredictable - slice of soapy intrigue (Sally Webster's extra-marital affair. Sally Webster - intriguing!!! When did that happen??)?

[WalfordMafia]

Wonderful theories and analysis there James. And although I understand what you mean about the Kathy/Steve switch (enter a phase of flash un-Walfordian characters and overblown storytelling - Mel's Kidnapping, Who Shot Phil), but I will readily admit to beind utterly involved in these years of the show, because the stories were being told with energy, with an "EastEnders Mk2" style. I said in my thread "EastEnders Burnout" how the show thrives on adrenaline, and these years oozed with it. I'd count these years as still very EastEnders, but you're absolutely right, the rot was there beneath the veneer. Oh, but I would personally count the Slater-heavy years (esp. "You Aint My Mother!") as being characteristically as intrinsically woven into the fabric of Walford as much as the Jackson, or even early Fowler/Beale days are. They may not have had the ties to olde-world Walford (save the contrivance between Pat and Mo... a contrivance now to be seen with Johnny Allen), and may have been inject as a generally destabalising 'soap within a soap', they were an energising shot of adrenaline heading into the decade: and they produced perfect television for the age, although incredibly far removed from the storytelling style of the earlier, more paced, days. They will probably be seen as to EastEnders through these years, what the MacDonalds, as you say, were to Coronation Street in the 90s.



...I don't include the arrival of Barbara Windsor as Peggy - a popular, but I believe crucially misconceived, piece of casting...

I am interested as to why you think this, though. Although there are times when both the 'star matriarchs' (Barbara Windsor's Peggy Mitchell, and Wendy Richard's Pauline Fowler) seem to be illfitting in the soap for one reason or another (sporadic inability to act is top of the list, a rigor mortis frequented by many EastEnders cast members), I think they are almost perfect choices to play these women. It's hard to explain, but as I see it, these Walford women 'round out' their (as actresses) story arc. Peggy & Pauline are the natural end to the bubbly, brassy characters both women were famed for at the height of their pre-Enders careers. Perhaps Pauline's intolerably miserable life is now a shade over-exagerrated and far removed from the line between Miss Brahms and her, but Peggy Mitchell's mid-90s cancer storyline worked not because of the issue, at all, but because it was happening to her... it was the harsh 90s commentary on the end of innocence, the end of the days where she was just a giggle and a jiggle. It was moving. I think this way, anyhow. I would like to see Peggy more as the ex-wife of a notorious, tough East End boxer (the Mitchell father), keeping a grip on her brood, rather than the snapping dog, glamour-gran she became by the time of the 'slapping Frank and Pat' story, but I don't resent it much. I like her little landlady routine. I'd be interested as to where you think the character/casting ought to be or have differed then, James.

[Pamela Barnes]

I'm watching UPSTAIRS, DOWNSTAIRS on DVD at the moment. Just as in all classic soap opera, from DALLAS to EASTENDERS (back in the day), we can see the way some characters (like Hudson and Rose) cleave to the sense of order and belonging that comes from their surroundings (even though it ensures that they will forever remain in servitude), while others (Sarah, Captain James) yearn to escape its confines. As a period drama, it has the benefit of hindsight; the writers know how world events will turn out and they can tie their characters to them. Where DALLAS and ENDERS were ultimately unable to move with the times and gradually became repetitive and irrelevant, UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS could reflect the social changes of English society and how that affected the lives of those in the Bellamy household. Nowaday soaps live in a weird, sort of quasi-reality. ENDERS especially still prides itself on being "gritty" and "real", yet has nothing to do with the real world or the even real East End. And, unlike CORRIE, it no longer has a strong enough sense of its own universe to shrug off pretensions to social relevance and just create drama and humour on its own terms.

Its actually this sense of place that Eastenders has lost and I think lost along time ago. Coronation Street I think has created an enviornment which has changed with the times, the factory appearing, new houses, super stores. It maintains a balance whereas Eastenders may as well now be set in Narnia for for its relevence to London life. Gangsters do exist, but nowadays they are groups of 20 somethings on Estates. If Eastenders ended now I wouldnt really be that bothered, it can never be the same for me without a radical overhaul. Personally I would like to see something new, something which is relevent, maybe even political and intelligent in the same way Brookside was when it started.

I just think Eastenders has dumbed down. Im proud to have Corrie and it manages to hit my emotions in a way that Eastenders hasnt done since the days of Carol Jackson.

[James from London]

Barbara Windsor's links to both the Krays and Ronnie Knight was definitely part of the "aura" she brought with her to the show, but the writers and actress coasted on that aura rather than digging any deeper. There was very little of "East End Peggy" and far too much "Showbiz Barbara" in her performance. Walford was once quite a dangerous, sordid place to be. Now it's all been scrubbed clean and, despite the odd cut out gangster, it's all a bit too nice - a bit too "Showbiz Barbara".

[WalfordMafia]

Well, I see what you're point it. But i'm sure when Barbara Windsor's Peggy first arrived (remembering that the Mitchell Mother had previously appeared sporadically played by a very, very different actress... a woman much more realistically a mother to the bullet-headed Brothers), in the aftermath of the SharonGate Affair, Windsor was, to all and sundry, the "Carry On" girl grown up. She may have had links to London's underworld through the Krays and Knight as you say, but I very much doubt that's what she was brought in for by the producers, nor what the viewers had in mind when she appeared. Plus, the Mitchell's weren't the 'gangster' family they moulded into by these days, back in those days: it was a couple of east end wide boys, their brattish little sister, and then Peggy, who I believe was always intended as a less ravenish successor to Angie -- a landlady who gave them the ol' razzle dazzle in her manor. Do you see what I mean? I think you have a very valid point, about what could have been, but perhaps you've read into you're own throry a bit too much.

Billy Murray (new cut out gangster, Johnny Allen) has very strong, clear links to the Krays in his own life, and, as he is intended with no shadown of a doubt to be a shady character, they were explored from minute one. I think Windsor was probably employed for her "Showbiz Barbara" credentials, rather than her "East End Peggy" possibilities.

[Toby]

As a period drama, it has the benefit of hindsight; the writers know how world events will turn out and they can tie their characters to them. Where DALLAS and ENDERS were ultimately unable to move with the times and gradually became repetitive and irrelevant, UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS could reflect the social changes of English society and how that affected the lives of those in the Bellamy household.

This is an excellent point, and it's one that informs most of the dramas I've cited in this thread.

THE HOUSE OF ELLIOT is set in the 1920's but appropriates 80's/early 90's notions of entrepreneurial elan and feminism via capitalism to drive its female protagonists through the drama. I suppose that Stephanie Beacham in CONNIE and Cherie Lunghi's character in the football series THE MANAGERESS would be more contemporary equivalents.

SECRET ARMY was a retroactive tribute to the courage of individual men and women in occupied Europe who risked and in many cases sacrificed their lives to fight the Nazi threat so we may enjoy the relative freedoms that we have today.

TENKO is an astonishingly incisive interpretation of WW2 experiences filtered through the perspective of events since the war. The women prisoners of war (Marion, Beatrice, Christina etc.) are all profoundly changed by their internment. Each character has a clear place and status in the world at the beginning of the series - Marion the comfortable, compliant military/society wife, Beatrice the by the book doctor and Christina, half-British, half-Chinese, denied the privileges of the ruling whites, forbidden to enter Raffles and almost refused a ticket for the evacuation of Singapore because of her Eurasian looks - and by the end of the series, each character explicitly questions their pre-war lives, their opinions and attitudes having undergone a dramatic change.

With the storylines involving the upper-class women prisoners reduced to the status of coolies and forced to do manual labour, the friendships formed in the camp as the women's situation breaks down the social barriers between them, and commandant Yamauchi's frequent tirades against European imperialist exploitation of Asia, TENKO is a compelling study of the decline of the British Empire, the dissolution of the traditional three-tier British class system, post-colonial guilt and the ensuing crisis of confidence engendered by an awareness of the loss of global influence and the societal certainties associated with that position.

You could even argue that TENKO is in fact is a metaphor for the post-WW2 progress of Britain itself.

[James from London]

The one thing that never occurred to me until I watched the documentary that accompanies the UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS DVD, and I kind of wished I hadn't found out, is that even though the series spans thirty odd years, it was filmed in five, and none of the characters actually aged. As Jean Marsh points out, in reality Rose would have been 102 years old at the end of the series, but actually looks younger than when it began because the hairstyle of that period (1930s) flattered her! The only character who does age, because the actor insisted on it, is Simon Williams's Captain James. As a result, he and his father end up looking more like brothers! On the whole, though, I'm sure they made the right decision, rather than having all the actors swimming about in sea of latex.

[Droitwich Lloyd]

I watched all those as a kid,well,Secret Army,Tenko and such,I always thought Tenko was so depressing!
I'd like to see Secret Army again though.
One period drama not mentioned though is 'The Ceder Tree',does anyone remember this ITV drama serial from the late seventies?

[Toby]

The one thing that never occurred to me until I watched the documentary that accompanies the UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS DVD, and I kind of wished I hadn't found out, is that even though the series spans thirty odd years, it was filmed in five, and none of the characters actually aged. As Jean Marsh points out, in reality Rose would have been 102 years old at the end of the series, but actually looks younger than when it began because the hairstyle of that period (1930s) flattered her! The only character who does age, because the actor insisted on it, is Simon Williams's Captain James. As a result, he and his father end up looking more like brothers! On the whole, though, I'm sure they made the right decision, rather than having all the actors swimming about in sea of latex.

I suppose this works because UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS was primarily an evocation of an era, as opposed to historical reconstruction.

[Toby]

One period drama not mentioned though is 'The Ceder Tree',does anyone remember this ITV drama serial from the late seventies?

THE CEDAR TREE gets a brief mention on the GEMS thread.

[Droitwich Lloyd]

Cheers Tobs.

[Toby]

I watched all those as a kid,well,Secret Army,Tenko and such,I always thought Tenko was so depressing!
I'd like to see Secret Army again though.

SECRET ARMY is definitely worth a watch. There really isn't a bad episode or performance in it, and the parallels to ALLO ALLO (episodes involving secret underground tunnels, forged paintings and an RAF evader disguising himself as a woman in order to avoid capture) are often breathtaking.

[Toby]

http://www.vintagetimes.org.uk/covers/rt/1984-10-06_big.jpg

[Toby]

Although in the late 1990's and early 2000's, it was amazing how TV was awash with adaptations of MIDDLEMARCH, PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, TOM JONES, DAVID COPPERFIELD etc., back in the late 1980's period drama/soaps were virtually non-existent. All the series which had been so successful in the 1970's - UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS, I CLAUDIUS, SECRET ARMY, POLDARK, THE DUCHESS OF DUKE STREET, THE ONEDIN LINE - had been cancelled by the 1980's, and only TENKO carried the banner forward into the new decade.

This may have been because of two entries into the genre that have had both found their way into people's TV Hell turkey lists - THE BORGIAS and THE CLEOPATRAS.

http://www.vintagetimes.org.uk/covers/rt/1981-10-10_big.jpg

THE BORGIAS was transmitted in 1981, and was basically I CLAUDIUS updated to 15th century Renaissance Italy, showing the demonic progress of the Borgias to becoming Italy's most feared and formidable family.

http://www.televisionheaven.co.uk/cleopatras1.jpg

THE CLEOPATRAS was shown in 1983, and again transplanted the I CLAUDIUS formula of ambition and evildoing against a historical backdrop, this time being set during the reigns of the six Cleopatras in Ancient Egypt.

As usual with BBC period drama, the detail was excellent but this quality did not spread to the scripts and the acting. The failure of both THE BORGIAS and THE CLEOPATRAS in the ratings may have been temporarily put the historical soap genre to the sword, and it was only revived again in 1991 with the success of THE HOUSE OF ELLIOTT.

Perhaps because after I CLAUDIUS, there were only so many orgy scenes you could see before you became bored.

[Toby]

http://www.tvradiobits.co.uk/radiotimes/RT1992Sep.jpg

[MikeGne]

I know this is going back right to the original post, but didn't EastEnders do a period special once. I think it must have been around 1991, and it was a young Dot and Ethel or such. I know the Queen Vic was painted green, and it was set around the second world war I think. (The only reason I think it was 1991 is because the pub was repainted in that year, and I assume that they filmed this during the repaint - so the pub could be done in green before it was repainted in the black, green and gold of 1991.)

I can't remember much more about it but I think it was an hour of how the older generation in EastEnders got on 40 or so years earlier.

[Toby]

In case anyone's interested, according to this webpage (http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/releaseinfo.cfm?ReleaseID=4800) series one of THE HOUSE OF ELLIOT will be released on DVD in the U.S. on the 28th June by Acorn Media.

[MikeGne]

I wasn't going mad:

http://www.nmpft.org.uk/television/tvdetails.asp?id=23

...." Dot and Ethel reminisce about the old days - wartime evacuation, their marriages and changes in the square over the years. This set the scene for a later Christmas episode which was actually set in the 1940s"

[Toby]

An excellent, very detailed site devoted to UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS can be found here. (http://www.updown.org.uk/)

[willie oleson]

One of my favourites...

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000507PS.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Toby]

Yes, I remember (briefly) watching some of THE GRAND. It was set in a post-WW1 Manchester hotel and seemed like a cross between UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS and THE DUCHESS OF SUKE STREET.

[Toby]

More DVD news to anyone who's interested:

KESSLER, the six-part contemporary sequel to SECRET ARMY, is being released on 19th September. Extras will include: interviews with Clifford Rose (Kessler) and director Michael E. Briant, an audio commentary on the last episode, photo galleries and a production notes booklet written by Andy Priestner, who wrote the booklets that accompanied the SECRET ARMY DVD sets.

[James from London]

I never saw THE GRAND, but it was written by Russell T. Davies (DOCTOR WHO), who discussed it on a recent documentary. He said it was the first non-kids' drama he ever wrote, and he had no idea what he was doing.