Which Ewing brother is older, Ray or Gary? A few other questions from a newbie fan...

[Unregistered]

I just got into DALLAS and KNOTS LANDING a little over a year ago after watching reruns on SoapNet, so I have a few questions regarding the Ewing brothers...

1.) Is this the correct order from oldest to youngest: J.R., Ray, Gary, and Bobby?

2.) Have Gary and Ray even held a conversation together?

3.) Which brothers had the best relationship with each other? In fact, how did each brother get along with Gary Ewing? Did Bobby and Ray ever become friends after Ray found out he was a Ewing? Better yet, did Ray stop taking orders from Bobby once he found out that Bobby was his little brother? I know that J.R. and Ray started off as friends until Ray found his fiance in bed with J.R. and the revelation that Ray was the bastard son of Jock Ewing. Speaking of which...

4.) What was the reaction of J.R., Bobby, and Gary upon finding out that Ray Krebbs was a Ewing? What was MRS. ELLIE'S reaction to finding out that Ray was Jock's son with another woman?

5.) How many guest-appearances did Ted Shackleford (as Gary Ewing) make on DALLAS? I know that the first time Gary came back to Dallas he was portrayed by another actor, and I recall that TS returned to Dallas for the reading of Jock's last Will and Testament.

...thanks for the help, peeps!

[HookEmHorns]

From what I know, the sequence of brothers goes like this: Ray, J.R., Gary, Bobby. I could be wrong, though. In the first season, it seems like Ray and Bobby get along pretty well, but I haven't seen any episodes past the DVD set, so I really can't answer your other questions. Hope you get the answers you need! Welcome to the forum!
--LN

[Nikie]

JR is the oldest, it either goes Ray then Gary or Gary then Ray...but I thinking it was Ray then Gary.

[HookEmHorns]

Really? I thought Jock fathered Ray before he and Miss Ellie were married? --LN

[Nikie]

Jock father Ray in the middle of the war with Margaret Krebbs while he was married to Miss Ellie.

[HookEmHorns]

Ohhhhh, bad Jock! lol. Thanks for setting the record straight for me. --LN

[Unregistered]

You learn something new everyday...

:-)

[CarlD]

Not sure who's older, Ray or Gary. Ray looks older to me, with his premature gray hair.

I think Jock told Ellie about the affair as soon as he got home, at least he has a conscience. Didn't find out Ray was his son until early season 3 though.

[Tatianna]

Not sure who's older, Ray or Gary. Ray looks older to me, with his premature gray hair.

I think Jock told Ellie about the affair as soon as he got home, at least he has a conscience. Didn't find out Ray was his son until early season 3 though.


Really, I didn't know that. I thought Jock only told Miss Ellie about the affair with Margaret after Amos Krebbs told Jock that Ray was his son. I never realized that Miss Ellie already knew about the affair. :thanks: :hello:

[Nikie]

I didn't know the affair had been talk about it till after Ray found out that he was Jock's son.

[Kate Ewing]

I just watched this episode last night and this is what it tells us. Ray was born in 1945. We know this because Amos gives Jock Margaret's 1946 diary in which she talks about how Ray is one year old. Jock tells Amos that after he was married to Miss Ellie he went to England in the war, had the affair with the nurse (Margaret) and came home and fessed up. Of course he did not know he had fathered a son.

Now JR was born I believe in 1939. Miss Ellie and Jock were married I think in 1935. She tells Sue Ellen they had problems in their marriage til JR was born which was a few years later. I think there is some other corroboration that JR was born in 1939.

Bobby was born in 1952. We know this because Scotty Demarest tells the family that Bobby is the only one who couldn't have shot Hutch McKinney because he was being born at the time of the shooting, 28 years ago, which in 1980 would be 1952.

So Gary is somewhere between Bobby and JR and I am guessing he is younger than Ray because Jock was in the service in the early 40's. So Gary was born probably between 1946 (when Jock returns from the war) and 1952. I remember a conversation in the kitchen between Gary and Bobby where it seemed they were very close in age.

In answer to one of your other questions, Bobby and Gary were very close. JR had no use for Gary and thought he was a loser. Bobby and Ray were always like brothers even before they knew they were brothers. JR and Ray were good friends until the Garnet McGee incident and then it was never the same.

[MsTexas73]

HOt4JR, thanks for the posting. This is what I thought also, except I thought Gary was around the same age as Ray, maybe even a years older. But remembering that conversation in the kitchen, I can see Gary and Bobby being even closer in age. And it would make sense too, because it would justify even more JR's dislike of his brothers, especially if her were an only child for a while.

BUT on the other hand, I thought JR was still pretty young when Miss Ellie has Gary, because Jock takes over raising him when Gary is born.

[Kate Ewing]

I'm thinking JR was around 6 when Gary is born. This would explain his sense of entitlement. He had several years to be an only child and resented the addition of first one and then a second brother.

[Unregistered]

I just watched this episode last night and this is what it tells us. Ray was born in 1945. We know this because Amos gives Jock Margaret's 1946 diary in which she talks about how Ray is one year old. Jock tells Amos that after he was married to Miss Ellie he went to England in the war, had the affair with the nurse (Margaret) and came home and fessed up. Of course he did not know he had fathered a son.

Now JR was born I believe in 1939. Miss Ellie and Jock were married I think in 1935. She tells Sue Ellen they had problems in their marriage til JR was born which was a few years later. I think there is some other corroboration that JR was born in 1939.

Bobby was born in 1952. We know this because Scotty Demarest tells the family that Bobby is the only one who couldn't have shot Hutch McKinney because he was being born at the time of the shooting, 28 years ago, which in 1980 would be 1952.

So Gary is somewhere between Bobby and JR and I am guessing he is younger than Ray because Jock was in the service in the early 40's. So Gary was born probably between 1946 (when Jock returns from the war) and 1952. I remember a conversation in the kitchen between Gary and Bobby where it seemed they were very close in age.

In answer to one of your other questions, Bobby and Gary were very close. JR had no use for Gary and thought he was a loser. Bobby and Ray were always like brothers even before they knew they were brothers. JR and Ray were good friends until the Garnet McGee incident and then it was never the same.

Just one more question (for now LOL)...I remember the first time Gary came back to Southfork Bobby made a remark about being too young to understand the rift between J.R. and Gary and said that he did not know Gary all that well. Of course, Gary was run out of town by J.R., again, and Bobby commented on how he liked having another brother at Southfork because Gary was sincere and had a heart. Well, when did Gary and Bobby ever find the time to have a brotherly bond when Gary moved to Knots Landing, California? Was it ever acknowledged that Bobby and Pam went to vist Gary and Valene in Knots Landing?

Oh, and did Jock and Gary ever come to terms before Jock had passed away? Why was there so much friction between them in the first place? For that matter, why did J.R. hate Gary so much, yet he was always protective of Bobby (despite Bobby punching him out numerous times)?

[Kate Ewing]

Bobby did go to Calif to set up Gary and Valene in Knots Landing. Don't know if Jock and Gary came to terms before Jock's death, but I think so because Jock attended Gary's remarriage to Valene. There was friction because Gary did not have a head for business, and was, as Miss Ellie put it, "A Southworth among Ewings", was only into ranching and painting, and was not tough like JR. JR did not really hate his brother, he just had no respect for him because he was so different. Nevertheless JR seemed to always feel he had to keep Gary away or else it would threaten his position in the family. That's my take.

[Mrs.JockEwing]

I believe J.R. was born in 1939, Gary 1943, (because Lucy was born in 1961), Ray 1945-1946, and Bobby 1949. In Pam's dream Bobby's birthdate is 1949.

[MsTexas73]

Mrs. Jock that sounds pretty accurate. Bobby was supposed to be around ten years younger than JR. And I think I've seen those dates pop up before. I think it was a writers' error with that 1952 business, as he and Donna are supposed to pretty close be the same age, and in 1978/79 Donna was 28 (I honestly still can't believe they made her that young) She looked older than Sue Ellen.

Anyway, That's my take on things.

[FifthBrother]

To answer another question: Gary and Ray did have several conversations together... One when Gary first came back to the ranch in the first season, another when Gary came back for Bobby's funeral in season eight, maybe a few other brief talks here and there. But there was no brotherly bond, as they didn't grow up together. They were friendly acquaintances mainly.

[Tatianna]

That's how I remember it also, Fifthbrother. JR and Bobby saw Ray on a daily basis and their bond was what you might expect, given the circumstances, but Gary never had the opportunity to get to know Ray and bond as brothers since he lived in California. I never recalled it mentioned on Knots Landing about Ray being a Ewing.

I believe it was easier for JR and Bobby to accept Ray since they had liked him before the relationship was exposed. If they had not known Ray before, I don't think they would have been as accepting of him.

[Unregistered]

I just find the Ewing sibs relationships with each other to be quite interesting, especially with Gary Ewing being so far removed from the family. A few more questions, and then I will leave everybody alone...

:-)

1.) Did Lucy Ewing ever reconcile with Gary and Valene in Knots Landing? In fact, whatever happened to Lucy into the last season of the show?

2.) Between J.R. and Bobby, which brother was better, or more successful, as the CEO of Ewing Oil? I know J.R. pretty much ran the show in the beginning, but I read that Bobby came out as the victor in the war he had with J.R. over control of Ewing oil. Did J.R. ever get back Ewing Oil?

3.) I had heard that Mrs. Ellie left Southfork Ranch to Bobby when she left Dallas with Clayton Farlow (that his name?)...why didn't she leave it to J.R.? Where did Mrs. Ellie and Clayton run off to?

4.) I had also learned that J.R. discovered that he had a son prior to the one he had with Sue Ellen, and that his son was a grown man when he reunited with J.R....who was the mother of J.R.'s eldest son? Was she ever on the show at some point?

[Nikie]

4) JR apparently fathered a son before him and Sue Ellen was married to a woman named Vanessa Beaumont...I can't stand her. She was on the show in its last season. James *The son JR fathered* came back in Season 12.

3) Miss Ellie and Clayton left Southfork to travel Europe

2) I don't know...I guess Bobby was because he didn't crooked anybody like JR did. I think JR was more successful.

1) I don't know the first one since I don't watch much Knots Landing.

[Unregistered]

...because it seems that Europe home away from home for the Ewings.

Didn't Sue Ellen leave J.R. and move to Europe with her son? Ray Krebbs and Jenna Wade also left for Europe during their last days on DALLAS. If I am not mistaken, wasn't it revealed that J.R. did not shoot himself in the last episode of DALLAS (my favorite cliffhanger, by the way) in the WAR OF THE EWINGS (wasn't that the Dallas reunion special) and was living in Europe? Did every member of Dallas end up in Europe?

...A little variety wouldn't have hurt anybody...

;-)

You would think that if a cowboy like Ray Krebbs wanted to leave Dallas and make a fresh start he would want to make a fresh start in some familiar terrirtory, such as the northwest (Montana and Oregon), midwest (Colorado or Oklahoma), or midsouth (Tennessee, Kentucky, or the Carolinas) region of the United States because they share similarities to Southfork and compliment his rough-redneck lifestyle. I just find it funny...

[Nikie]

That is a favorite place for the Ewings

Jenna and Ray left for Europe in Season 10.
Sue Ellen left without John Ross for London in Season 11
Clayton and Ellie left for Europe
Lucy even left for Europe if I'm not mistaken
JR did travel around Europe...but War of the Ewings is the second one...the one you are talking about is JR Returns and that's when we learn that he didn't shoot himself.

[MsTexas73]

I just find the Ewing sibs relationships with each other to be quite interesting, especially with Gary Ewing being so far removed from the family. A few more questions, and then I will leave everybody alone...

:-)

1.) Did Lucy Ewing ever reconcile with Gary and Valene in Knots Landing? In fact, whatever happened to Lucy into the last season of the show?

2.) Between J.R. and Bobby, which brother was better, or more successful, as the CEO of Ewing Oil? I know J.R. pretty much ran the show in the beginning, but I read that Bobby came out as the victor in the war he had with J.R. over control of Ewing oil. Did J.R. ever get back Ewing Oil?

3.) I had heard that Mrs. Ellie left Southfork Ranch to Bobby when she left Dallas with Clayton Farlow (that his name?)...why didn't she leave it to J.R.? Where did Mrs. Ellie and Clayton run off to?

4.) I had also learned that J.R. discovered that he had a son prior to the one he had with Sue Ellen, and that his son was a grown man when he reunited with J.R....who was the mother of J.R.'s eldest son? Was she ever on the show at some point?


Lucy reconciles with her parents in season two. By the time she marries Mitch it is resumed that she's no longer upset with her parents.

Bobby can sort of be considered the better businessman as he didn't lose a lot of money as JR did. JR lost the company about 2 billion dollars I believe.

Miss Ellie left Southfork to the Ewing son who took the most interest in the land, Bobby. JR didn't care so much about the land as he did the oil underneath it. And with Gary in California, with his own ranch, and Bobby already running the ranch, it just made sense.

JR's 'presumed' oldest son James and his mother Vanessa were on the show in the last couple of seasons. It was a stupid storyline as we faithful viewers cannot except that JR would ever except that boy as his son without a paternity test. Which was not taken by the way.

NOw you know it would have been better for you to wait and watch all this for yourself. It's so much more fun to be surprised than to already know. :lolo:

[MsTexas73]

Don't forget John Ross left for Europe in season 13.

[Unregistered]

Lucy reconciles with her parents in season two. By the time she marries Mitch it is resumed that she's no longer upset with her parents.

Bobby can sort of be considered the better businessman as he didn't lose a lot of money as JR did. JR lost the company about 2 billion dollars I believe.

Miss Ellie left Southfork to the Ewing son who took the most interest in the land, Bobby. JR didn't care so much about the land as he did the oil underneath it. And with Gary in California, with his own ranch, and Bobby already running the ranch, it just made sense.

JR's 'presumed' oldest son James and his mother Vanessa were on the show in the last couple of seasons. It was a stupid storyline as we faithful viewers cannot except that JR would ever except that boy as his son without a paternity test. Which was not taken by the way.

NOw you know it would have been better for you to wait and watch all this for yourself. It's so much more fun to be surprised than to already know. :lolo:

Yeah, I know it is better to be suprised, but I had to ask just in case SoapNet yanks DALLAS off of its schedule before season 13, in which case I would be unable to watch reruns of the show. I wish I could catch a glimpse of WAR OF THE EWINGS, so I am hoping that one network will showcase it sometime in the near future.

I cannot believe J.R. did not have a paternity test! He nearly womanized the entire city of Dallas, so he should have litters of bastard children throughout Dallas. Even if he didn't have any, I am suprised that none of the women he sexual relations with took advantage of getting the biggest child support check in the history of welfare services, especially if he was not willing to do a paternity test.

[snuggletiger]

I think JR is born in 1939 , and Gary is born in like 1941 then Jock goes to the war, has the affair with Margaret, that puts Ray i being born 1946, then Bobby in like 1952.

[Joecool3]

It is JR, RAY, GARY and then Bobby. JR before the war(1939), Raymond during the last days of the war(1945). Garrison baby boomer(1946 or 1948/49) and then Bobby(1952 or1949).Either way there is a three year gap between Gary and Bobby.

[snuggletiger]

I thought in Van Wormer's book she said Gary was born before the war. But I could be wrong, and that would put Ray being born in 1945-1946. And then Bobby.

[Kirby]

For some reason, I always thought that Ray was older than Gary.

[Obi-Wan McCartney]

I swear to go, a long time ago I remember seeing an episode where Ray is talking to Bobby about how Bobby doesn't hang around with baby Lucas Wade, and how Ray "misses his big brother." That always struck me as odd, but then again, Bobby seems like he's older than Ray to me..

But then again, in one episode Ms. Ellie gives JR a letter that Jock wrote when he thought he was going to die, and it states that Bobby and Gary weren't born yet so that's why the letter is only to JR.

So I would guess that J.R. was born before the war, that Gary and Ray are about the same age (Ray was essentially a Gary replacement anyway, the "ranchhand loser" brother, although Ray wasn't quite the Fredo that Gary was).

But you also gotta remember that Jock used to take trips with J.R., Gary, Ray, and Bobby when they were kids, and Ray lived with the Ewings since he was 15, so he had a sense of being part of the family ala Tom Hagan.

[Coastal Texan]

I think that the book w/the character bios gave these birthdates:

JR-1938
Gary-1941
Ray-1946
Bobby-1948

Gary & Bobby were close growing up, but Bobby was too young to see what was going on when Gary had his problems w/Jock & JR and left.

Originally JR & Ray were friends, but after Garnet McGee, Ray decided to become a good guy and stay out of JR's schemes. He became Bobby's friend instead. After it was learned that he was Jock's son, JR tried to discredit him all he could.

In the episode where Lucy gets married, Gary learns that Ray is his brother and welcomes him to the family.

[Joecool3]

If Ray came to live with the Ewings at 15, and went hunting with Jock and the boys, and Gary left the ranch at 16. Some said Gary was born 1941 and Ray 1946(five years ) then that means Gray lleft the ranch at age 20/21 which is wrong. That means Ray was born first 1944 when Jock was in France and Ray's mother was shipped home. Gary was born maybe 1946/47, see the bond between Jock and Ray, JR and Ray were pals, life on the ranch was unbearable. His older brother would perfer to hang with the ranch hand than him and his father favoured the ranch hand than him. Why stay somewhere you are not wanted-he forgot his younger brother needed him,his Mama, wife and baby.Tough life!!!

[jason ewing1911]

I swear to go, a long time ago I remember seeing an episode where Ray is talking to Bobby about how Bobby doesn't hang around with baby Lucas Wade, and how Ray "misses his big brother." That always struck me as odd, but then again, Bobby seems like he's older than Ray to me..

But then again, in one episode Ms. Ellie gives JR a letter that Jock wrote when he thought he was going to die, and it states that Bobby and Gary weren't born yet so that's why the letter is only to JR.

So I would guess that J.R. was born before the war, that Gary and Ray are about the same age (Ray was essentially a Gary replacement anyway, the "ranchhand loser" brother, although Ray wasn't quite the Fredo that Gary was).

But you also gotta remember that Jock used to take trips with J.R., Gary, Ray, and Bobby when they were kids, and Ray lived with the Ewings since he was 15, so he had a sense of being part of the family ala Tom Hagan.

GREAT OBSERVATION!!! RAY WAS LIKE TOM HAGEN. AND HARV SMITHFIELD/PUNK ANDERSON WERE LIKE GENCO. OR PUNK WAS LIKE CLEMENZA.

[Garrison]

GREAT OBSERVATION!!! RAY WAS LIKE TOM HAGEN. AND HARV SMITHFIELD/PUNK ANDERSON WERE LIKE GENCO. OR PUNK WAS LIKE CLEMENZA.

I'm all for comparing The Godfather to Dallas, but those are weak. If Punk is like anyone he's Frankie "Five Angels" Pentagali.

[Valene Ewing]

We did the Godfather comparison's over a year ago. They are as follows:

Jock/Vito- The similarities are that they are the patriarchs of the two families. They started the business from the ground up along with friends, but each emerge as the leader of that establishment. Very wise men, who had one bitter rival in their respective businesses.

JR/Santino- No JR is not the brawler that Sonny is, but he is the impulsive business man that Sonny is. Plus, he is the playboy that Sonny is. These two can definitely out-smart themselves in a business deal.

Gary/Fredo- The outcasts of the two respective families. Both percieved as weak characters. I don't think Gary is a weak as Fredo (well David Akroyd's Gary is, but not Ted Shackleford's). These two, like their polder brothers, are playboys as well. Gary grew out of his weaknesses & progressed, Fredo never emerged from his weaknesses. But both craved the one thing that neither ever got, Daddy's love & approval. Both felt that they were "Stepped over" & they wanted some respect. Remember Fredo's tirade to Michael near the end of Godfather 2.

Bobby/Michael- The two baby boys, adored by their respective daddies. Bobby is not the ruthless killer that Michael is, but both these two are smarter, better business men then their respective older brothers (JR & Sonny). Both are very loyal & faithful to their wives. Both had their marriages end because of the family business.

Ray/Tom- Similar backgrounds, very different personalties. Ray is not the brainiac that Tom is, but the two handled specific areas of their respective families' business. More important, & this is the only similarity to the two chracters that I could come up with other than the fact that the two characters joined the families at a very young age, is that both served as the right hand to the two Dad's so-to-speak. I guess as Ray was the Gary replacement, Tom was the Fredo replacement.

Miss Ellie/Momma Corleone- Very different. Only thing similar is the matriarchial roles. Miss Ellie ran her family, Moma never spoke up to Vito. Miss Ellie loved all of her daughter-in-laws (including Donna). Momma didn't like Kay Adams (Michael's wife) or Deanna (Fredo's wife).

Lucy/Connie- OK not exactly the same. Connie is a daughter & Lucy a grand-daughter. The similarities in the two character's is that they are spoiled as hell & they make stupid choices in men because of it.

[eciton burchelli]

To answer another question: Gary and Ray did have several conversations together... One when Gary first came back to the ranch in the first season, another when Gary came back for Bobby's funeral in season eight, maybe a few other brief talks here and there. But there was no brotherly bond, as they didn't grow up together. They were friendly acquaintances mainly.

That's all true, but I'm not sure they ever had a one on one with each other without people around them. That might have been nice.

[JR-Fan #1]

BUT on the other hand, I thought JR was still pretty young when Miss Ellie has Gary, because Jock takes over raising him when Gary is born.

Yes, Ellie once said that Jock took over raising JR "when he was only 5 years old". "Jock had JR and well I turned to Garry then...(!!!don't remember the exact words!!!!)...

I thought they once said, that JR is 5 or 6 years older than Garry and 10 years older than Bobby.
I'm quite sure about that....
Garry was already born, when ol' JR was 5 years old, IMO!
OK, let's just say: JR born 1939 or 1942 (his medical record of season 4 says, that he was born in 1942...) and at least 5 years older than his brother Garry.

I'd say, that Gary was born either in 1944 or in 1947....

Could be one year younger or two years older than Ray, depends all on JR's real "year of birth"...

[Coastal Texan]

Since Lucy graduated from High School in 1979, she had to have been born around 1961. If Gary was born around 1946-47, that would have made him 14 or 15 years old at the time. This makes no sense, since it was established that Gary studied Art at SMU for a year before dropping out and meeting Val.
I would have to go w/Gary being born around 1941-42.

Since Ray was an orphan, Jock probably took pity on him and included him on the family hunting trips. When Jock becme older, he developed more interest in ranching and thus, a close friendship w/Ray.

[JR-Fan #1]

Gosh, what am I writing!????? :mad:

(According to that)
He could be A year OLDER or 2 years YOUNGER than Ray!

Sorry!

[Garrison]

Much like deabting where Bobby went to college, there is no sense in debating the ages of the 4 Ewing sons. The writers really didn't care about continuity when it came to ages.

[Mrs.JockEwing]

I can't imagine Gary being born after the war due to Lucy being born in 1960-1961. Although you can father a child at 15.

[Garrison]

And you could be in college at 15, too. Did they have the GED in 1960?

[dr_raines]

Am I wrong, or .. I thought I remember Jock mentioning (to Ray) that when he had his affair with Ray's mother, JR was a kid and Ellie (just had I think) a baby (which must be Gary) ... So, Am I totally crazy or did I just find the answer ? lol